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Is Pathfinder 2 Paizo's 4E?
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7629983" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>By "high concept simulationism" I mean what The Forge means - as eg per <a href="http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/15/" target="_blank">this essay by Ron Edwards</a>. Game systems that are generally oriented towards such play include DL-ish AD&D, CoC, Vampire: the Masquerade, and a fair bit of PF-ish/5e-ish Adventure Path play.</p><p></p><p>When I talk about PC with a concept I'm meaning PCs that are easily graspable as falling under some genre-salient description. Han Solo as the "rogue with a heart of gold" would be a pretty well-known example.</p><p></p><p>I don't really follow this. It's imputing things to me that I didn't say.</p><p></p><p>Moldvay Basic makes it incredibly easy to (at least aspire to) play a rogue with a heart of gold - you write Thief on your PC sheet and tell everyone, or maybe show them through play, that your thief is well-meaning and ultimately loyal even if a bit of a rascal. In AD&D you can reinforce this by writing CG in your alignment box.</p><p></p><p>I use the language of aspiration because in Moldvay Basic and AD&D if the GM is following the rules then your thief might find it hard to succeed in roguish things due to the well-known mechanical suckitude of low-level thieves. In 5e this issue, as best I can tell, largely goes away for reason to do with (i) better success numbers on the PC sheet, and (ii) a slightly different approach to framing and adjudication of checks which [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] has posted about just upthread.</p><p></p><p>I didn't say that. I said that - and you quoted me as saying that - "Assuming you're using GNS more-or-less as The Forge does, then there's no interesting difference between 4e and 13th Age." You suggested that 13th Age is "narrativist" and 4e is "gamist", but in The Forge sense the two systems exhibit no such contrast. And in fact, if anything, I would say that the existence of skill challenges in 4e and their absence from 13th Age makes 4e more suited for mainstream scene-framing narrativist play, while the presence of Icon rolls in 13th Age makes it easier to push that game in the direction of high-concept simulationism (whereas, as I posted, I think that's almost hopeless for 4e because too many of the system elements, including the skill challenge mechanic, will push against it).</p><p></p><p>Again, I didn't say they're the same. Just that I don't think there is any significant GNS difference in respect of them.</p><p></p><p>To give a parallel exampel: In Forge terms Burning Wheel, Prince Valiant and The Dying Earth are all narrativist systems. But they all feel different in play - I suspect more different than 5e and PF. That doesn't stop them all being narrrativist. GNS isn't the only classification used by The Forge to describe games, and it's not intended at all to describe the "feel" of play, as opposed to something like the "goal" of play at a certain abstract level of description.</p><p></p><p>But if you're using GNS is some other fashion then The Forge's use, well I'm not famiilar with what that is but presumalby you're using those terms as you mean to.</p><p></p><p>This is another point where I have no idea what you're talking about. 4e is the only version of D&D I've payed regularly in the past 20 years and the only one I would play again (except perhaps for one or two sessions of AD&D a year for nostalgia's sake).</p><p></p><p>I didn't express any dislike of it and didn't make any criticisms of it. I observed a feature of it that I think - based on pretty extensive play experience and discusion - is pretty significant in understanding how it can be played. And my claim that it is not suitable for high concept play is - in my view - reinforced by the fact that nearly every poster on these boards who (as best I can interpret their preferences) likes high concept D&D play either dislikes or hates 4e.</p><p></p><p>(There are a few exceptions but that's nearly always the case in human affairs.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7629983, member: 42582"] By "high concept simulationism" I mean what The Forge means - as eg per [url=http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/15/]this essay by Ron Edwards[/url]. Game systems that are generally oriented towards such play include DL-ish AD&D, CoC, Vampire: the Masquerade, and a fair bit of PF-ish/5e-ish Adventure Path play. When I talk about PC with a concept I'm meaning PCs that are easily graspable as falling under some genre-salient description. Han Solo as the "rogue with a heart of gold" would be a pretty well-known example. I don't really follow this. It's imputing things to me that I didn't say. Moldvay Basic makes it incredibly easy to (at least aspire to) play a rogue with a heart of gold - you write Thief on your PC sheet and tell everyone, or maybe show them through play, that your thief is well-meaning and ultimately loyal even if a bit of a rascal. In AD&D you can reinforce this by writing CG in your alignment box. I use the language of aspiration because in Moldvay Basic and AD&D if the GM is following the rules then your thief might find it hard to succeed in roguish things due to the well-known mechanical suckitude of low-level thieves. In 5e this issue, as best I can tell, largely goes away for reason to do with (i) better success numbers on the PC sheet, and (ii) a slightly different approach to framing and adjudication of checks which [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] has posted about just upthread. I didn't say that. I said that - and you quoted me as saying that - "Assuming you're using GNS more-or-less as The Forge does, then there's no interesting difference between 4e and 13th Age." You suggested that 13th Age is "narrativist" and 4e is "gamist", but in The Forge sense the two systems exhibit no such contrast. And in fact, if anything, I would say that the existence of skill challenges in 4e and their absence from 13th Age makes 4e more suited for mainstream scene-framing narrativist play, while the presence of Icon rolls in 13th Age makes it easier to push that game in the direction of high-concept simulationism (whereas, as I posted, I think that's almost hopeless for 4e because too many of the system elements, including the skill challenge mechanic, will push against it). Again, I didn't say they're the same. Just that I don't think there is any significant GNS difference in respect of them. To give a parallel exampel: In Forge terms Burning Wheel, Prince Valiant and The Dying Earth are all narrativist systems. But they all feel different in play - I suspect more different than 5e and PF. That doesn't stop them all being narrrativist. GNS isn't the only classification used by The Forge to describe games, and it's not intended at all to describe the "feel" of play, as opposed to something like the "goal" of play at a certain abstract level of description. But if you're using GNS is some other fashion then The Forge's use, well I'm not famiilar with what that is but presumalby you're using those terms as you mean to. This is another point where I have no idea what you're talking about. 4e is the only version of D&D I've payed regularly in the past 20 years and the only one I would play again (except perhaps for one or two sessions of AD&D a year for nostalgia's sake). I didn't express any dislike of it and didn't make any criticisms of it. I observed a feature of it that I think - based on pretty extensive play experience and discusion - is pretty significant in understanding how it can be played. And my claim that it is not suitable for high concept play is - in my view - reinforced by the fact that nearly every poster on these boards who (as best I can interpret their preferences) likes high concept D&D play either dislikes or hates 4e. (There are a few exceptions but that's nearly always the case in human affairs.) [/QUOTE]
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