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Is Pathfinder 2 Paizo's 4E?
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7630462" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p><em>Gamism</em> = RPGing with win conditions. Gygaxian dungeoneering is an example. Supers-type RPGing where the Hulk has to beat up on the Thing to save the day is probably another. And I susspect a fair bit of Rifts play is like this also. Stuff that matters in design includes GM fairness and, in crunch-heavy systems, broken builds.</p><p></p><p><em>Simulationism</em> = RPGing in which the players' goals is to "be there" - either in the world as it plays out through the mechanics (eg a lot of RM, Runequest and Classic Traveller), or in the world as it plays out through the GMs story/scenario (eg CoC, much post-DL D&D play, V:tM, and basically anything that follows The Alexandrian's advice around "node-based design" or "the three clue rule").</p><p></p><p><em>Narrativism</em> (once called <em>Dramatism</em> in some discussion, but Jonathan Tweet had already coined that term for a different purpose in his game Everway and so Ron Edwards out of deference to Tween coined a new term) = RPGing where the goal, in play, is to <em>create</em> story experiences that are recognisably stories in the sense in which novels and films are stories, and an account of what I had for lunch yesterday probably isnt. So sequences of events that exhibit pacing, theme, rising action and climax, etc - <em>where this is not pre-established by a GM or module writer</em> but is done collectively at the table using the classic RPGing devices of players playing characters through the GM's world/situation. An early example is Prince Valiant. The best-known contemporary examples are probably Dogs in the Vineyard and Apocalypse World and many of its offshoots. My favourite version of such a system is Burning Wheel.</p><p></p><p>A group of us on these boards - me, [MENTION=1282]darkbard[/MENTION], [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] and some others - think that of all versions of D&D, 4e is the best suited for narrativist play; and that independently of comparisons to other versions of D&D, it's well-suited to narrativist play. The features of the system that underpin that are the same features that make it poorly-suited for simulationist play, and that therefore make it unpopular with many RPGers.</p><p></p><p>Whatever the commercial fate of Paizo's PF2, I've seen no evidence that PF2 is intended to be, or will be, a good game for narrativist purposes. But I haven't been following that closely; maybe [MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION] has a different view or can shed more light.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7630462, member: 42582"] [I]Gamism[/I] = RPGing with win conditions. Gygaxian dungeoneering is an example. Supers-type RPGing where the Hulk has to beat up on the Thing to save the day is probably another. And I susspect a fair bit of Rifts play is like this also. Stuff that matters in design includes GM fairness and, in crunch-heavy systems, broken builds. [I]Simulationism[/I] = RPGing in which the players' goals is to "be there" - either in the world as it plays out through the mechanics (eg a lot of RM, Runequest and Classic Traveller), or in the world as it plays out through the GMs story/scenario (eg CoC, much post-DL D&D play, V:tM, and basically anything that follows The Alexandrian's advice around "node-based design" or "the three clue rule"). [I]Narrativism[/I] (once called [I]Dramatism[/I] in some discussion, but Jonathan Tweet had already coined that term for a different purpose in his game Everway and so Ron Edwards out of deference to Tween coined a new term) = RPGing where the goal, in play, is to [I]create[/I] story experiences that are recognisably stories in the sense in which novels and films are stories, and an account of what I had for lunch yesterday probably isnt. So sequences of events that exhibit pacing, theme, rising action and climax, etc - [I]where this is not pre-established by a GM or module writer[/I] but is done collectively at the table using the classic RPGing devices of players playing characters through the GM's world/situation. An early example is Prince Valiant. The best-known contemporary examples are probably Dogs in the Vineyard and Apocalypse World and many of its offshoots. My favourite version of such a system is Burning Wheel. A group of us on these boards - me, [MENTION=1282]darkbard[/MENTION], [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] and some others - think that of all versions of D&D, 4e is the best suited for narrativist play; and that independently of comparisons to other versions of D&D, it's well-suited to narrativist play. The features of the system that underpin that are the same features that make it poorly-suited for simulationist play, and that therefore make it unpopular with many RPGers. Whatever the commercial fate of Paizo's PF2, I've seen no evidence that PF2 is intended to be, or will be, a good game for narrativist purposes. But I haven't been following that closely; maybe [MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION] has a different view or can shed more light. [/QUOTE]
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