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Is Pathfinder 2 Paizo's 4E?
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7630519" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Physicists call the heat given of by a burning match "work". Even though no one is doing any work. Most jargon has an origin that explains where it came from even though the present use of the jargon wouldn't reveal that.</p><p></p><p>Immersion is often used to describe a mental state. A person can play a Paizo AP and be engaged in the world of the story without entering that mental state, I think.</p><p></p><p>It's not <em>ironic</em>. As [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] already posted, a significant, perhaps primary, driver of The Forge was to try and understand why Storyteller - especially V:tM - sucks if your goal in RPGing is to create story via play in the way I described. And then to design games that didn't suck in the same way.</p><p></p><p>Someone might classify both basketball and croquet as ball sports, but I'm not sure that's going to take us very far. Whereas I can see how comparing basket ball and rugby makes sense (and if you combined them you might even come up with something that resembles Australian football).</p><p></p><p>Because RPGing invovles multiple participants, most of whom are in the "player"/"protagonist" role, it turns out that the difference between <em>playing through a pre-established story</em> and <em>generating a story via play</em> is pretty fundamental. If you're into the latter, the former is something you need to learn identify and avoid even if has the label "storyteller" on it. If you're into the former, then most players who prefer the latter are going to register on your "problem player" meter, as they won't just sit back and go along for the ride . . .</p><p></p><p>Much as most cooks don't set out to anything in particular from the point of view of chemistry - they just try and make nice food. Chemistry might still help us understand what it is they're doing.</p><p></p><p>It's possible to talk about the sort of play that (say) 5e supports well or poorly whether or not its designers were thinking about that at the time they designed it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7630519, member: 42582"] Physicists call the heat given of by a burning match "work". Even though no one is doing any work. Most jargon has an origin that explains where it came from even though the present use of the jargon wouldn't reveal that. Immersion is often used to describe a mental state. A person can play a Paizo AP and be engaged in the world of the story without entering that mental state, I think. It's not [I]ironic[/I]. As [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] already posted, a significant, perhaps primary, driver of The Forge was to try and understand why Storyteller - especially V:tM - sucks if your goal in RPGing is to create story via play in the way I described. And then to design games that didn't suck in the same way. Someone might classify both basketball and croquet as ball sports, but I'm not sure that's going to take us very far. Whereas I can see how comparing basket ball and rugby makes sense (and if you combined them you might even come up with something that resembles Australian football). Because RPGing invovles multiple participants, most of whom are in the "player"/"protagonist" role, it turns out that the difference between [I]playing through a pre-established story[/I] and [I]generating a story via play[/I] is pretty fundamental. If you're into the latter, the former is something you need to learn identify and avoid even if has the label "storyteller" on it. If you're into the former, then most players who prefer the latter are going to register on your "problem player" meter, as they won't just sit back and go along for the ride . . . Much as most cooks don't set out to anything in particular from the point of view of chemistry - they just try and make nice food. Chemistry might still help us understand what it is they're doing. It's possible to talk about the sort of play that (say) 5e supports well or poorly whether or not its designers were thinking about that at the time they designed it. [/QUOTE]
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