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Is Pathfinder 2 Paizo's 4E?
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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7630702" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>I think the horse I have in it is still hitched to a plow.</p><p> Yet, rewards for system mastery seem like they'd be aligned with that agenda. .</p><p> Win conditions might be set in any scenario, and could be cooperative. But I'm not so sure broken characters aren't still an issue without them - dominating play is dominating play, regardless.</p><p></p><p> Even in physics sense, work involves moving objects. If the system under consideration is just a burning match, no work is being done.</p><p>There are plenty of examples of physics jargon that are just a matter of being named after someone or just completely arbitrary. Few, though are intentionally deceptive...</p><p> It seems as or more suggestive of the concept than simulation.</p><p> </p><p>I have an impression that the Forge banged out GNS as a refinement of three-fold theory, which itself, came from the false dichotomy of the Roll v Role debate.</p><p>Also, the Forge always struck me as a coterie of unsuccessful,* aspiring, & armchair game designers, trying to understand, in terms of game design, why the RPG hobby got so niche in the 90s, how Storyteller led the hobby, only to return to D&D dominance with d20, in spite of spits of D&D and ST both being execrably-designed systems.</p><p>A problem with that being that they were marketing & sociology questions, not game-design questions.</p><p></p><p> It's at least using both terms intuitively. Both can be played competatively, both use balls. They're distinct from, say, Track & field or Olympic swimming or fencing.</p><p>A comparably broad term might be TTRPG.</p><p></p><p> I can't agree. A skillful GM could deliver a player experience while running the players through a pre-established story that would be industinguishable from one generated organically from play.</p><p> Not that storyteller is a great, or even functional system, nor that it would be some great injustice to shun it...</p><p>...But that sure sounds like sorting games into monolithic categories and judging them.</p><p></p><p> Chemistry has a couple centuries of scientific rigour behind it. The Forge was a few years of opinionated word-wrangling in a veritable echo-chamber.</p><p>It should be, but the Forge and GNS have not facilitated that sort of analysis.</p><p></p><p>For instance, 5e is not great for PvP, but with a sufficiently fair & impartial DM, its doable. 5e is not great for telling a collaborative story, but with a wise & open enough DM, it's doable. 5e is not great for creating an immersive 1st-person experience, but an expressive DM with high social intelligence could pull it off.</p><p>It's not the GNS segregation of preferences that helpfully characterizes or describes it, it's qualities of the system that empower the DM that're defining.</p><p></p><p> I think the villain laugh is your answer.</p><p><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p>Seriously though, hp loss can be used, arbitrarily, by the DM as a stick to shove a misbehaving player back in line, or punish inappropriate RP. It's crude code for "I'll throw you out of the game," but I've seen it done - back in the day - and even seen it work. By the same token there are RP carrots DMs can arbitrarily give out as rewards. There are even formal systems for them, like 5e inspiration.</p><p></p><p>Besides, hps can include factors like luck, fate, divine favor or the like that the DM could claim control over.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>* relative to the success of D&D in the fad years - or today - or Storyteller in the 90s.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7630702, member: 996"] I think the horse I have in it is still hitched to a plow. Yet, rewards for system mastery seem like they'd be aligned with that agenda. . Win conditions might be set in any scenario, and could be cooperative. But I'm not so sure broken characters aren't still an issue without them - dominating play is dominating play, regardless. Even in physics sense, work involves moving objects. If the system under consideration is just a burning match, no work is being done. There are plenty of examples of physics jargon that are just a matter of being named after someone or just completely arbitrary. Few, though are intentionally deceptive... It seems as or more suggestive of the concept than simulation. I have an impression that the Forge banged out GNS as a refinement of three-fold theory, which itself, came from the false dichotomy of the Roll v Role debate. Also, the Forge always struck me as a coterie of unsuccessful,* aspiring, & armchair game designers, trying to understand, in terms of game design, why the RPG hobby got so niche in the 90s, how Storyteller led the hobby, only to return to D&D dominance with d20, in spite of spits of D&D and ST both being execrably-designed systems. A problem with that being that they were marketing & sociology questions, not game-design questions. It's at least using both terms intuitively. Both can be played competatively, both use balls. They're distinct from, say, Track & field or Olympic swimming or fencing. A comparably broad term might be TTRPG. I can't agree. A skillful GM could deliver a player experience while running the players through a pre-established story that would be industinguishable from one generated organically from play. Not that storyteller is a great, or even functional system, nor that it would be some great injustice to shun it... ...But that sure sounds like sorting games into monolithic categories and judging them. Chemistry has a couple centuries of scientific rigour behind it. The Forge was a few years of opinionated word-wrangling in a veritable echo-chamber. It should be, but the Forge and GNS have not facilitated that sort of analysis. For instance, 5e is not great for PvP, but with a sufficiently fair & impartial DM, its doable. 5e is not great for telling a collaborative story, but with a wise & open enough DM, it's doable. 5e is not great for creating an immersive 1st-person experience, but an expressive DM with high social intelligence could pull it off. It's not the GNS segregation of preferences that helpfully characterizes or describes it, it's qualities of the system that empower the DM that're defining. I think the villain laugh is your answer. ;) Seriously though, hp loss can be used, arbitrarily, by the DM as a stick to shove a misbehaving player back in line, or punish inappropriate RP. It's crude code for "I'll throw you out of the game," but I've seen it done - back in the day - and even seen it work. By the same token there are RP carrots DMs can arbitrarily give out as rewards. There are even formal systems for them, like 5e inspiration. Besides, hps can include factors like luck, fate, divine favor or the like that the DM could claim control over. * relative to the success of D&D in the fad years - or today - or Storyteller in the 90s. [/QUOTE]
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