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Is Pathfinder 2 Paizo's 4E?
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7630818" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>In narrativist play the notion of setting win conditions is complicated at best. The notion of "scenario", as opposed to "situation", can also be problematic.</p><p></p><p>I don't think Ron Edwards et al intended to be "deceptive". Who are they trying to deceive? Every one of the major essays has a glossary appended; the major essays set out in detail what is meant to be conveyed by various terms; the forum posts are long and anaytical - there's not even <em>deception</em>, let alone any <em>intention</em> to deceive.</p><p></p><p>You mean like Ron Edwards, Paul Czege, Vincent Baker and Luke Crane? I wish I could have that kind of un-success in my chosen profession!</p><p></p><p>(1) Nothing I've ever read there has given me this impression. I read discussions of game design and game play.</p><p></p><p>(2) The conclusion of Ron Edwards's essay <a href="http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/20/" target="_blank">"A Hard Look at Dungeons and Dragons"</a> (mid-2003):</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">I don't know whether I'll ever get to further discussion of the history of D&D; in many ways, it's out of my sphere of interest except in strictly marketing and industry terms, and I don't have much personal history either as player or professional to draw upon. </p><p></p><p>To be honest, I think you might be projecting. <em>You</em> are the one who is fascinated by the market</p><p>dominance of games that you regard as poorly designed.</p><p></p><p>I don't know if you intend this as analysis. To me, all it's saying is that you think a GM-driven game can kinda-sorta do the stuff the GM wants. I could substitute GURPS, AD&D, Rolemaster, even T&T into your statement and the claims would still be true.</p><p></p><p>That's not analysis of system at all, just an assertion about how high-concept simulationism or some relativey narrow forms of gamism are possible if we ignore the actual mechanics of the game system.</p><p></p><p>This claim is false, and as far as I know has not a shred of evidence to support it.</p><p></p><p>I see it made quite often, but only by people who have no experience with narrativist-style play.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7630818, member: 42582"] In narrativist play the notion of setting win conditions is complicated at best. The notion of "scenario", as opposed to "situation", can also be problematic. I don't think Ron Edwards et al intended to be "deceptive". Who are they trying to deceive? Every one of the major essays has a glossary appended; the major essays set out in detail what is meant to be conveyed by various terms; the forum posts are long and anaytical - there's not even [I]deception[/I], let alone any [I]intention[/I] to deceive. You mean like Ron Edwards, Paul Czege, Vincent Baker and Luke Crane? I wish I could have that kind of un-success in my chosen profession! (1) Nothing I've ever read there has given me this impression. I read discussions of game design and game play. (2) The conclusion of Ron Edwards's essay [url=http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/20/]"A Hard Look at Dungeons and Dragons"[/url] (mid-2003): [indent]I don't know whether I'll ever get to further discussion of the history of D&D; in many ways, it's out of my sphere of interest except in strictly marketing and industry terms, and I don't have much personal history either as player or professional to draw upon. [/indent] To be honest, I think you might be projecting. [I]You[/I] are the one who is fascinated by the market dominance of games that you regard as poorly designed. I don't know if you intend this as analysis. To me, all it's saying is that you think a GM-driven game can kinda-sorta do the stuff the GM wants. I could substitute GURPS, AD&D, Rolemaster, even T&T into your statement and the claims would still be true. That's not analysis of system at all, just an assertion about how high-concept simulationism or some relativey narrow forms of gamism are possible if we ignore the actual mechanics of the game system. This claim is false, and as far as I know has not a shred of evidence to support it. I see it made quite often, but only by people who have no experience with narrativist-style play. [/QUOTE]
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