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Is Pathfinder 2 Paizo's 4E?
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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7636817" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>I believe I said that. 5e didn't get rid of the things that were complained about, it put /back/ the things that those stalking-horses were really about. </p><p>You have no idea. I'm a bitter, cynical, old man on my best day, discussing the most innocuous things. </p><p>I turn it down to 11 when I'm here.</p><p>Heh. Depends how you run it.</p><p></p><p> 5e /brought back/ the faults of 3e - and, more importantly, those of the TSR era - some of them to a lesser degree, but bringing back an issue, is not fixing it. And, as someone who appreciated 3e for things it did /well/, 5e is, sadly, no successor. It's more wedged between TSR & 3e. Mechanically, it uses lots of little details from d20, but the big picture, the 'play loop,' the role of the DM: it evokes the classic game. </p><p></p><p>Because the existing PF fans are already in their camp, they're deeply invested, they've developed a lot of loyalty with that base. 5e 'fans' are a bigger group, /but they're already fans of 5e/, the newer ones are barely aware other RPGs exist, and, were they to try one, would likely have one of two reactions "This is jus like D&D, why wouldn't I just keep playing D&D" or "This is weird, why would I bother learning it when I already know D&D?" </p><p></p><p>The more established fans of 5e, OTOH, find it more than adequately doing D&D things, while having the D&D label. They won't /leave/ it for yet another version of D&D with the serial #s filed off. They will entertain other systems that do entirely different things, though, if they've ever been open to that before...</p><p>...and if they have, they probably already have alternatives they like.</p><p></p><p>PF1 succeeded because D&D wasn't D&D enough, and, thanks to the OGL, PF /could/ be D&D enough.</p><p>PF2 does not have that option.</p><p></p><p>5e's still not simple. It may be slow to release reams of crap, but it's still, in trying to feel like D&D, a needlessly complicated system, because, like LFQW and untennable time-pressure balance, needless complication is just part of the D&D feel.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7636817, member: 996"] I believe I said that. 5e didn't get rid of the things that were complained about, it put /back/ the things that those stalking-horses were really about. You have no idea. I'm a bitter, cynical, old man on my best day, discussing the most innocuous things. I turn it down to 11 when I'm here. Heh. Depends how you run it. 5e /brought back/ the faults of 3e - and, more importantly, those of the TSR era - some of them to a lesser degree, but bringing back an issue, is not fixing it. And, as someone who appreciated 3e for things it did /well/, 5e is, sadly, no successor. It's more wedged between TSR & 3e. Mechanically, it uses lots of little details from d20, but the big picture, the 'play loop,' the role of the DM: it evokes the classic game. Because the existing PF fans are already in their camp, they're deeply invested, they've developed a lot of loyalty with that base. 5e 'fans' are a bigger group, /but they're already fans of 5e/, the newer ones are barely aware other RPGs exist, and, were they to try one, would likely have one of two reactions "This is jus like D&D, why wouldn't I just keep playing D&D" or "This is weird, why would I bother learning it when I already know D&D?" The more established fans of 5e, OTOH, find it more than adequately doing D&D things, while having the D&D label. They won't /leave/ it for yet another version of D&D with the serial #s filed off. They will entertain other systems that do entirely different things, though, if they've ever been open to that before... ...and if they have, they probably already have alternatives they like. PF1 succeeded because D&D wasn't D&D enough, and, thanks to the OGL, PF /could/ be D&D enough. PF2 does not have that option. 5e's still not simple. It may be slow to release reams of crap, but it's still, in trying to feel like D&D, a needlessly complicated system, because, like LFQW and untennable time-pressure balance, needless complication is just part of the D&D feel. [/QUOTE]
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