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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Parmandur" data-source="post: 7640831" data-attributes="member: 6780330">When you assert that 5e has 'raised' a bar, and that reducing somewhat the enormity of the gap between caster & martial classes relative to 3.5, is a major way in which that bar was 'raised,' yeah, the fact that bar hasn't moved much at all is kinda relevant.At least you're no longer trying to promulgate the fiction that 5e 'fixed LFQW,' when, in fact, it brought it back. "Retrograde?"  Who doesn't just say 'retro.'  And, in the post-5e 'world' (of TTRPGs), it's a lot safer to follow the leader, and go retro - but not /quite/ OSR retro.  'Modern' would be following trends led by games like PbtA or DitV or something... and that would probably be a bad call for Paizo.Really, it's kinda funny, D&D is riding a come-back wave, rivaling it's 80s popularity, in small part, by evoking the feel of the system as it was in the 80s, and, in large part, by having 'D&D' on the cover while threading that always-critical-when-selling-cult/nerd-IP-to-the-mainstream needle between accessible to new fans and acceptable to old fans. Because if you make the game too faithful to the existing fanbase, it'll repel too many of the newbies who try it - and if you don't make it faithful /enough/ the fans will raise such a 'controversy' that few newbies will want to try it.The only way that matters to PF2 is that they don't have an old-fan backlash to hitch their clone-an-old-version wagon to, this time.I get that, I really do, because 5e's slow pace of release is upsetting to the GABA receptors of anyone acclimated to 3.5/PF.  But, really, they can't easily be going that way. It'd've made a lot more sense, if they were going there, to have hopped onto the 5e bandwagon no later than the release of it's SRD, and started churning out high-quality adventures, either their usual APs or the smaller-format old-school-style modules WotC seems reluctant to print, and then segue from that into providing 'Advanced' supplemental options for 5e, finally bringing it up to 3.5-style speed.We'd have the munching and the crunching.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />PF2 doesn't sound a thing like that - nor does it sound anything like 4e. Yeah.  No. Nice try though.  LFQW and Tier 1 caster supremacy was absolutely /crazy/ in 3.5, though, you're not wrong about that, even PF1 arguably reigned it in a little.  It's like 3.5 was the Joker running wild in Gotham City while Batman was on vacation, and 5e is the contained, manageable, Hannibal Lecter.</blockquote>On an LFQW/caster-supremacy scale of 1-10, with 1 being theoretically-impossible perfect caster-martial balance, and 10 being "would make even an Ars Magica mage feel a little guilty."  And leaving out 4e:3.5:  15PF1:  145e:  132e: 121e: 11j/k <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />  f'real, this time:3.5:  105e:    9AD&D:  8It's not hard to understand, at all:  that's fairly clearly-stated.  /The/ big difference between 5e & 3e, though, is DM Empowerment, as abetted by the 'play loop.'  Other than that*, especially with options turned on, they're quite similar systems.As to the use of "retrograde," the Capn is Swedish (IIRC), and is working on his second language at any rate.5E solves the caster/martial gap by making the difference manageable, rather than removing the difference. In combat, a Fighter without magic will, over the course of a full combat day, contribute the same asa Wizard: the difference now isn't linear progression versus quadratic progression, it's a steady line of contribution versus a wave pattern of contribution for the Wizard. If the casters are consistently outshining the martials, then the DM needs to up the ante and make the casters worry about the resource game. If resources are not pushed to their limit, it is a table issue, not the rules of 5E having failed to provide the solution.[/QUOTE]

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