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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7640889" data-attributes="member: 996">They get shouted down pretty quickly, and it's not like they were ever non-controversial. Neo-Vancian keeps the usual suspects in Tier 1 (if you transplanted neo-Vancian into 3.5, it'd make them "Tier 0" for sure), the Bard has clawed it's way up quite a bit, arguably even that high. Some sub-classes arguably belong in different Tiers, the Fighter could be said to be splayed out from Tier 5 through 3. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />  But not all that hugely different, really, because the game's /trying not to be that hugely different, really/.DM fiat can keep /anything/ in line, sure. ::shrug:: It didn't, it just didn't multiply it LFQW factors.  Like I said, not perfect.The versatility disparity was there from 1st level.  Fighter got defender class features, skills. The Wizard got controller class features (which, itself, gets complicated), skills, plus cantrips, plus rituals.  (Now, TBF, rituals cost to cast made them little more than a license to use a specific expendable item, and with wealth/level & make/buy, the fighter had quite the range of expendables, too.)And, there was inherently less versatility in martial exploits - which were always weapon-keyword, virtually never typed damage, mostly attacked AC, typically melee/range, limited when Close & rarely area, and more combat-focused when utilities - than prayers or spells which had numerous damage types, were frequently range/area, imposed a wider range of conditions (slightly, you didn't expect to see Dominate on exploits, for instance), especially exception-based one-offs (like, oh, "I hurl you through Hell - save ends, tho"), and accomplished a wider range of effects with utilities.  But, that didn't balloon at high level in the LFQW pattern.  The casters and non-casters /both/ got more options as they leveled up, so the relative versatility of those options didn't grow vastly with level.Not /just/ for that reason, but, yes, spells & rituals are greatly upgraded (restored) in effect and versatility compared to spells & rituals in 4e.  5e /did/ focus on getting BA & DPR to line up, though.  A Warlock's baseline DPR isn't obviously superior to an Archers, for instance. Single-target DPR is formulaic by slot level (& cantrips attack bonus, and save DCs by caster level) and not the most potent thing you can do with a spell.  Area & multi-target DPR is another thing entirely, and once you go beyond DPR, there's vanishingly little (the odd BM trick) on the non-caster side.</blockquote>

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