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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 5406922" data-attributes="member: 5834">You point out another reason why I hated minions. It allowed 4E designers to marginalize AoE and try to sell us all on a mechanical way of making controllers look powerful, when they really weren't.The minion mechanic combined with controller weak AoE was like pulling back the curtain in The Wizard of Oz. What type of game designer makes a game where the mechanical curtain is pulled back for all to see?At least when you make lvl 12 Orc minions in Pathfinder and a Wizard takes them all out, he feels like a powerful wizard. He doesn't feel like a chump because the reality is that any farmer with a flask of alchemist fire could take out all the same minions with a lucky roll.And Pathfinder removed the problem with low level minion-type mobs not giving xp due to CR rating. That was a huge step in the right direction and showed very intelligent game design choices by James Jacobs and his crew. Now a lvl 10 or 20 fighter could, if so chooses, slaughter entire tribes of orcs and level. So you could now do a meaningful adventure like Driz'zit's a 1000 orcs and have it make mechanical sense. Great game design decision that fits fantasy situations like Lord of the Rings.The big problem with using large groups of low CR minion-type creatures in 3E was that they didn't provide a tangible gain for a high level party. So putting an army of kobolds or orcs in a high level adventure was a waste of time for the players. They felt like they were wasting their time because they received no xp and the DM felt like he was wasting time because he had to make sure the xp flow was enough to keep the players advancing.Now a Pathfinder DM can toss in those armies of low CR creatures, giving the feel of a huge epic battle, and still havec his players advance. To me that was a far more creative and effective way of incorporating those mass combat minion encounters that make characters feel like they have stomped an army.In 4E a 1000 minions of appropriate level would easily kill a party, even a high level party, because their offensive stats are high enough to harm the party. But in Pathfinder not only are the minion-level mobs weak on hit points, but their offensive stats are weak. So a high level party can destroy hundreds of them giving the feel of being a fighting beast capable of destroying an army at the highest levels of the game. Which is how they should feel about lvl 15 or so. A 15th level plus wizard or fighter should be able to decimate hordes of humanoids while not being hurt much at all. That mechanic is better represented in Pathfinder for my tastes, especially now that those minion-level mobs grant xp.</blockquote>

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