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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 7160663" data-attributes="member: 20323">Great advice so far.The problem, for me, boils down to: What does a Perception check actually signify? What is the character doing in precise terms?I'm sure every DM has heard at least once, upon a party entering a room: I make a Perception check. But what does that even mean?Imagine the same scenario, the party enters a room, but a player says instead: I make an Athletics check.Neither has any meaning. It's the context that gives them meaning (and risk/reward) – in the case Athletics, whether the PC is climbing, jumping, swimming, or whatever. But what is the context for Perception?It's tempting to make context for Perception be the five senses. For example, the player would need to say something like:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">"I'm listening at the door.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">"I raise my torch and peer into the shadows to see if there's anything hidden.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">"I feel along the wall for irregularities in the stone."</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">"I taste the vial for hints of poison."</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">"Is this troglodyte's smell similar to the one that stabbed Durkin?"</li> </ul>And then you need to attach risk/reward to it, just like you would for Athletics with climbing (risk of slipping/dropping an item), jumping (risk of falling), swimming (risk of getting swept away/drowning), etc. For example:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Listening: Maybe the PC risks vulnerability / disadvantaged saves to sound-based attacks/spells?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Looking: Maybe the PC risk surprise by hiding monsters? Or vulnerability / disadvantaged saves to vision-based attacks/spells?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Feeling: Maybe contact poisons and traps on the wall would impose disadvantage saves on the PC?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Tasting: Maybe the risk is making sure not to drink to much so as the PC actually gets poisoned?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Smelling: Maybe the risk is getting subjected to the Troglodyte's Stench as if it were there?</li> </ul>That's one idea. I haven't experimented a lot with it yet, but definitely I've been asking for clarification on what a PC is doing when a player says "I make a Perception check" and I've been placing risks on checks involving Perception, Investigation, Arcana, Nature, History, and Religion. So far, so good, but it's led me in a direction of play that feels different from how D&D is usually run.Not a bad thing. Just not for everyone.But if that's the approach you take (and it's a sensible one), Perception can start to encroach onto Investigation's territory... For example, if a player says "I smell the rags from the troglodyte we chased away. Is this troglodyte's smell similar to the one that stabbed Durkin? The DM needs to decide if this is the PC perceiving through their senses OR if it's the PC deducing a clue. This case feels like a 50/50 toss-up to me.</blockquote>

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