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Is "perception" even a good concept?
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<blockquote data-quote="iserith" data-source="post: 7161225" data-attributes="member: 97077"><p>As to the particularly well-hidden secret door, that is not necessarily so. A player could choose to spend 10x the amount of time as normal and find it automatically. (See DMG page 237.) The key here is that it is the player's choice to trade the resource of time for automatic success.</p><p></p><p>For the less well-hidden secret door, I see no issue here. The player is still choosing to Search for Secret Doors which comes at the cost of not performing other tasks. The character will automatically be surprised if lurking monsters attack due to not Keeping Watch. He or she will potentially run afoul of traps. And can't do anything else which distracts from that effort that might be of benefit or necessity to the party while performing that task. That's a meaningful choice and that's the sort of thing we want in our games, right?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If the rogue always looks for secret doors, he or she is not looking for traps or monsters. Same deal for the PC that is helping the rogue. Sure, they'll always find the secret doors - great! But they'll also always be surprised (when surprise is a thing) and maybe set off traps and can't do anything else. That's a player or players prioritizing one thing over another and taking risks to get a particular outcome. Isn't that desirable?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The DM decides when a roll is called for, so if nothing substantially changes about the method of searching, then why ask for another roll - they just fail again outright. Alternatively (and preferably in my view), you can offer the trade: Spend 10x more time on this task and I'll give you auto-success in that you will either find a secret door or know with certainty that there isn't one in this chamber. Now it's on the player to make another meaningful choice. This of course presumes that time is a limited resource. If it's not, I heartily recommend you do something about that.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I just can't see any abuses, not in practice or in theory. The players get to make meaningful choices to improve their odds of success. Isn't that a good thing?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, it's only a sure thing at the cost of something else. It's on the DM to make that cost meaningful. I don't see why the DM should care one way or another whether or how often the PCs succeed or fail, only that they had some say in how they go about their tasks and that their choices impact whether they succeed or fail.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="iserith, post: 7161225, member: 97077"] As to the particularly well-hidden secret door, that is not necessarily so. A player could choose to spend 10x the amount of time as normal and find it automatically. (See DMG page 237.) The key here is that it is the player's choice to trade the resource of time for automatic success. For the less well-hidden secret door, I see no issue here. The player is still choosing to Search for Secret Doors which comes at the cost of not performing other tasks. The character will automatically be surprised if lurking monsters attack due to not Keeping Watch. He or she will potentially run afoul of traps. And can't do anything else which distracts from that effort that might be of benefit or necessity to the party while performing that task. That's a meaningful choice and that's the sort of thing we want in our games, right? If the rogue always looks for secret doors, he or she is not looking for traps or monsters. Same deal for the PC that is helping the rogue. Sure, they'll always find the secret doors - great! But they'll also always be surprised (when surprise is a thing) and maybe set off traps and can't do anything else. That's a player or players prioritizing one thing over another and taking risks to get a particular outcome. Isn't that desirable? The DM decides when a roll is called for, so if nothing substantially changes about the method of searching, then why ask for another roll - they just fail again outright. Alternatively (and preferably in my view), you can offer the trade: Spend 10x more time on this task and I'll give you auto-success in that you will either find a secret door or know with certainty that there isn't one in this chamber. Now it's on the player to make another meaningful choice. This of course presumes that time is a limited resource. If it's not, I heartily recommend you do something about that. I just can't see any abuses, not in practice or in theory. The players get to make meaningful choices to improve their odds of success. Isn't that a good thing? Again, it's only a sure thing at the cost of something else. It's on the DM to make that cost meaningful. I don't see why the DM should care one way or another whether or how often the PCs succeed or fail, only that they had some say in how they go about their tasks and that their choices impact whether they succeed or fail. [/QUOTE]
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