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<blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 7161605" data-attributes="member: 20323">Absolutely, your ruling makes a lot of sense. It's a good work around.But I was making a point about the bigger picture....Giving Perception an active identity comes at the cost of taking away identity from Investigation.I understand why Perception is in the game – to give the players' protection from &quot;the monster/trap surprises you.&quot; (Yes, there are other reasons, but that is the 900 lb gorilla) But Perception doesn't really have an identity of its own.At least not yet. Not in the rules as they commonly seem to be interpreted (i.e. Perception checks everywhere! The DM calls for them! Players ask to make them!).I have two concurrent but probably mutually exclusive trains of thought...1) What if Perception had some codified uses that it doesn't currently have? Like using a Perception check or group Perception check to determine starting encounter distance. Or using Perception to identify certain types of combatants (e.g. brood mothers, generals, charmed/possessed monsters, the &quot;parent&quot; shadow that spawned all these other shadows).2) What if skills that gather/recall/notice information – Perception, Investigation, Arcana, History, Nature, and Religion in 5e – were treated more like backgrounds, rather than skills. IOW, they have no number value and require no dice to be rolled. They simply provide you with a baseline of information.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Quickleaf, post: 7161605, member: 20323"] Absolutely, your ruling makes a lot of sense. It's a good work around. But I was making a point about the bigger picture.... Giving Perception an active identity comes at the cost of taking away identity from Investigation. I understand why Perception is in the game – to give the players' protection from "the monster/trap surprises you." (Yes, there are other reasons, but that is the 900 lb gorilla) But Perception doesn't really have an identity of its own. At least not yet. Not in the rules as they commonly seem to be interpreted (i.e. Perception checks everywhere! The DM calls for them! Players ask to make them!). I have two concurrent but probably mutually exclusive trains of thought... 1) What if Perception had some codified uses that it doesn't currently have? Like using a Perception check or group Perception check to determine starting encounter distance. Or using Perception to identify certain types of combatants (e.g. brood mothers, generals, charmed/possessed monsters, the "parent" shadow that spawned all these other shadows). 2) What if skills that gather/recall/notice information – Perception, Investigation, Arcana, History, Nature, and Religion in 5e – were treated more like backgrounds, rather than skills. IOW, they have no number value and require no dice to be rolled. They simply provide you with a baseline of information. [/QUOTE]

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