Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Is "perception" even a good concept?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="iserith" data-source="post: 7162086" data-attributes="member: 97077"><p>I think "whim" is a little insulting. The implication is that the DM is just making stuff up and changing his or her mind arbitrarily with no explanation when that is most certainly not the case. Perhaps you don't mean it that way, but that is what "whim" means in this context.</p><p></p><p>A fair and consistent DM that balances out deciding on success or failure and going to the dice is making decisions and rulings based on carefully considered criteria, preparation, internal logic, and established fiction. They are consciously telegraphing information via describing the environment to avoid gotchas. They are taking every action declared by the players into consideration to award success to players who have been paying attention, immersing themselves in the world, and coming up with appropriate ideas to overcome challenges while not overdoing it such that the mechanics are irrelevant and the DM can be "gamed." All while pursuing the goals of play, that is, everyone having a good time and creating an exciting, memorable story.</p><p></p><p>It is a careful and methodical balancing act which takes into account the player's natural desire to avoid randomness wherever possible by having control over outcomes. That is not whim and it's no small feat either.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If a player asked me "Are there any goats in this town?" my response would be "What do you do to find out?" and "Stop asking me questions - do stuff by describing what you want to do." If a reasonable statement of goal and approach is offered, I will narrate the result of the adventurer's action based on the certainty of success. Because this is such a mundane action with likely no complicating factors, no dice will be used unless perhaps there is any negotiation on the goat's price. If it's my current campaign, buying a goat would be part of the town task of Supply and he or she would be able to choose a given location that sells Trade Goods (which may come with interesting trade-offs) as part of the three locations he or she will have time for in that given Supply task. Attempts at negotiation (which would again just be a statement of goal and approach, not a drawn out scene) would likely call for a Charisma check though it's a rare player in my games that will haggle over a 1-gp goat.</p><p></p><p>While it's a silly example, you can substitute basically anything in for the goal and approach of finding a goat and the same adjudication process applies. Again, not whim, not random. Consistent, balanced, fair. Bringing this all the way back around to the thread topic, the same goes for players describing actions to keep watch for danger or find the trap or search for secret doors. They state a goal and approach, I decide on success, failure, or uncertainty based on consistent factors and apply mechanics in the latter case. Balancing out granting success and going to the dice, in combination with other approaches, contributes to my players taking the Perception skill a lot less than some folks are reporting in this thread.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="iserith, post: 7162086, member: 97077"] I think "whim" is a little insulting. The implication is that the DM is just making stuff up and changing his or her mind arbitrarily with no explanation when that is most certainly not the case. Perhaps you don't mean it that way, but that is what "whim" means in this context. A fair and consistent DM that balances out deciding on success or failure and going to the dice is making decisions and rulings based on carefully considered criteria, preparation, internal logic, and established fiction. They are consciously telegraphing information via describing the environment to avoid gotchas. They are taking every action declared by the players into consideration to award success to players who have been paying attention, immersing themselves in the world, and coming up with appropriate ideas to overcome challenges while not overdoing it such that the mechanics are irrelevant and the DM can be "gamed." All while pursuing the goals of play, that is, everyone having a good time and creating an exciting, memorable story. It is a careful and methodical balancing act which takes into account the player's natural desire to avoid randomness wherever possible by having control over outcomes. That is not whim and it's no small feat either. If a player asked me "Are there any goats in this town?" my response would be "What do you do to find out?" and "Stop asking me questions - do stuff by describing what you want to do." If a reasonable statement of goal and approach is offered, I will narrate the result of the adventurer's action based on the certainty of success. Because this is such a mundane action with likely no complicating factors, no dice will be used unless perhaps there is any negotiation on the goat's price. If it's my current campaign, buying a goat would be part of the town task of Supply and he or she would be able to choose a given location that sells Trade Goods (which may come with interesting trade-offs) as part of the three locations he or she will have time for in that given Supply task. Attempts at negotiation (which would again just be a statement of goal and approach, not a drawn out scene) would likely call for a Charisma check though it's a rare player in my games that will haggle over a 1-gp goat. While it's a silly example, you can substitute basically anything in for the goal and approach of finding a goat and the same adjudication process applies. Again, not whim, not random. Consistent, balanced, fair. Bringing this all the way back around to the thread topic, the same goes for players describing actions to keep watch for danger or find the trap or search for secret doors. They state a goal and approach, I decide on success, failure, or uncertainty based on consistent factors and apply mechanics in the latter case. Balancing out granting success and going to the dice, in combination with other approaches, contributes to my players taking the Perception skill a lot less than some folks are reporting in this thread. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Is "perception" even a good concept?
Top