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<blockquote data-quote="frisbeet" data-source="post: 1429977" data-attributes="member: 10287">This thread has been dead a month, I know.&nbsp; But timing is everything, and my timing's off, so here's my rather-more-than-2 cp opinion.&nbsp; First off, here's a tool anyone can use to calculate their optimum PA for full attacks and single attacks, if they don't mind NOT being a PrC or epic character:<a href="http://www.geocities.com/frisbeet/DandDandFightin.html" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/frisbeet/DandDandFightin.html</a>Now why would you want to do this?Nail hit it right on:&nbsp;Guessing AC isn't about meta-gaming.&nbsp; Korak's almost right:&nbsp;Except the &quot;sizing up&quot; doesn't have to be conscious--maybe it's just the fighter's &quot;athletic intelligence&quot; at work--talent, if you will.Now for jgsugden insightful yet overreaching comments:This point is somewhat subjective, so it's hard to dispute: who decides what AC is &quot;patherically easy&quot; or &quot;incredibly hard&quot; to hit?&nbsp; But consider this, taken directly from the sheet on my site--do a couple of example calculations yourself if you're untrusting of these #s--Fighter 12Str 24Feats of WF, gWF, WS, gWS, iC for GreatswordWields a +3 Greatsword.Here's his average full attack damage/round, taking into account critical hits, when not power attacking, and then when power attacking with the optimum PA.&nbsp; FYI, there's nothing tricking about how this spreadsheet got these #s--you can't do calculus with this highly parameterized discrete problem to get a sol'n.&nbsp; My sheet brutally calculates all possible PA results and spits out the best one in the display.&nbsp; That's why it's so $#*&amp;) big (and because of DR), sorry dialups.[CODE]opp AC&nbsp;&nbsp; 0 PA&nbsp;&nbsp; opt PA&nbsp;&nbsp; w/ PA10&nbsp; &nbsp; 82.08&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; 152.6411&nbsp; &nbsp; 82.08&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; 149.7612&nbsp; &nbsp; 82.08&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; 144.0013&nbsp; &nbsp; 82.08&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; 138.2414&nbsp; &nbsp; 82.08&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; 132.4815&nbsp; &nbsp; 82.08&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; 126.9616&nbsp; &nbsp; 82.08&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 121.4417&nbsp; &nbsp; 82.08&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 116.1618&nbsp; &nbsp; 82.08&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 110.8819&nbsp; &nbsp; 80.64&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 105.8420&nbsp; &nbsp; 79.20&nbsp; &nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 100.8021&nbsp; &nbsp; 77.76&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 95.7622&nbsp; &nbsp; 76.32&nbsp; &nbsp; 6&nbsp; &nbsp; 90.7223&nbsp; &nbsp; 74.88&nbsp; &nbsp; 5&nbsp; &nbsp; 85.6824&nbsp; &nbsp; 72.00&nbsp; &nbsp; 4&nbsp; &nbsp; 80.6425&nbsp; &nbsp; 69.12&nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; 75.6026&nbsp; &nbsp; 66.24&nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; 70.5627&nbsp; &nbsp; 63.36&nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; 65.5228&nbsp; &nbsp; 60.48&nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; 60.8429&nbsp; &nbsp; 56.16&nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; 56.1630&nbsp; &nbsp; 51.84&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 51.8431&nbsp; &nbsp; 47.52&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 47.5232&nbsp; &nbsp; 43.20&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 43.2033&nbsp; &nbsp; 38.88&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 38.8834&nbsp; &nbsp; 34.38&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 34.3835&nbsp; &nbsp; 30.00&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 30.0036&nbsp; &nbsp; 25.74&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 25.7437&nbsp; &nbsp; 22.86&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 22.8638&nbsp; &nbsp; 19.98&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 19.9839&nbsp; &nbsp; 16.92&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 16.9240&nbsp; &nbsp; 13.98&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 13.9841&nbsp; &nbsp; 11.16&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 11.1642&nbsp; &nbsp; 9.72&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 9.7243&nbsp; &nbsp; 8.28&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 8.2844&nbsp; &nbsp; 6.66&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; 7.56[/CODE] Get this far?&nbsp; My point: ACs 22-27 don't seem that uncommon for a level 12 encounter.&nbsp; This takes into account those 2nd &amp; 3rd attacks, too.&nbsp; Power attack is useful.Guess the AC.&nbsp; It makes combat a lot more interesting--makes it easier to roleplay, ironically.Here's how the same fighter does single attacking, again from the sheet on my site:[CODE]opp AC&nbsp;&nbsp; 0 PA&nbsp;&nbsp; opt PA&nbsp;&nbsp; w/ PA10&nbsp; &nbsp; 27.36&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; 54.7211&nbsp; &nbsp; 27.36&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; 54.7212&nbsp; &nbsp; 27.36&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; 54.7213&nbsp; &nbsp; 27.36&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; 54.7214&nbsp; &nbsp; 27.36&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; 54.7215&nbsp; &nbsp; 27.36&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; 54.7216&nbsp; &nbsp; 27.36&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; 54.7217&nbsp; &nbsp; 27.36&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; 52.4418&nbsp; &nbsp; 27.36&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 50.1619&nbsp; &nbsp; 27.36&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 47.8820&nbsp; &nbsp; 27.36&nbsp; &nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 45.6021&nbsp; &nbsp; 27.36&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 43.3222&nbsp; &nbsp; 27.36&nbsp; &nbsp; 6&nbsp; &nbsp; 41.0423&nbsp; &nbsp; 27.36&nbsp; &nbsp; 6&nbsp; &nbsp; 38.8824&nbsp; &nbsp; 27.36&nbsp; &nbsp; 5&nbsp; &nbsp; 36.7225&nbsp; &nbsp; 27.36&nbsp; &nbsp; 5&nbsp; &nbsp; 34.6826&nbsp; &nbsp; 27.36&nbsp; &nbsp; 4&nbsp; &nbsp; 32.6427&nbsp; &nbsp; 27.36&nbsp; &nbsp; 4&nbsp; &nbsp; 30.7228&nbsp; &nbsp; 27.36&nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; 28.8029&nbsp; &nbsp; 25.92&nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; 27.0030&nbsp; &nbsp; 24.48&nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; 25.2031&nbsp; &nbsp; 23.04&nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; 23.5232&nbsp; &nbsp; 21.60&nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; 21.8433&nbsp; &nbsp; 20.16&nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; 20.2834&nbsp; &nbsp; 18.72&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 18.7235&nbsp; &nbsp; 17.28&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 17.2836&nbsp; &nbsp; 15.84&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 15.8437&nbsp; &nbsp; 14.40&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 14.4038&nbsp; &nbsp; 12.96&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 12.9639&nbsp; &nbsp; 11.52&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 11.5240&nbsp; &nbsp; 10.08&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 10.0841&nbsp; &nbsp; 8.64&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 8.6442&nbsp; &nbsp; 7.20&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 7.2043&nbsp; &nbsp; 5.76&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 5.7644&nbsp; &nbsp; 4.14&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 4.1445&nbsp; &nbsp; 2.64&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 2.6446&nbsp; &nbsp; 1.26&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; 2.52[/CODE]So whereas with full attack, you are best PA-ing through AC 27, in this case you you're best through AC 31.&nbsp; I'd have thought the difference would be more dramatic, as jgsugden implies.Jgsugden's last two points are dead on.All IMO, of course.&nbsp;<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f615.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":confused:" title="Confused&nbsp; &nbsp; :confused:"&nbsp; data-smilie="5"data-shortname=":confused:" />Edit: calculations corrected as of 3/22.&nbsp; Had parameterized the GS as doing 3 extra damage points/hit, which is silly.&nbsp; Architecture of spreadsheet unchanged.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="frisbeet, post: 1429977, member: 10287"] This thread has been dead a month, I know. But timing is everything, and my timing's off, so here's my rather-more-than-2 cp opinion. First off, here's a tool anyone can use to calculate their optimum PA for full attacks and single attacks, if they don't mind NOT being a PrC or epic character: [url]http://www.geocities.com/frisbeet/DandDandFightin.html[/url] Now why would you want to do this? Nail hit it right on: Guessing AC isn't about meta-gaming. Korak's almost right: Except the "sizing up" doesn't have to be conscious--maybe it's just the fighter's "athletic intelligence" at work--talent, if you will. Now for jgsugden insightful yet overreaching comments: This point is somewhat subjective, so it's hard to dispute: who decides what AC is "patherically easy" or "incredibly hard" to hit? But consider this, taken directly from the sheet on my site--do a couple of example calculations yourself if you're untrusting of these #s-- Fighter 12 Str 24 Feats of WF, gWF, WS, gWS, iC for Greatsword Wields a +3 Greatsword. Here's his average full attack damage/round, taking into account critical hits, when not power attacking, and then when power attacking with the optimum PA. FYI, there's nothing tricking about how this spreadsheet got these #s--you can't do calculus with this highly parameterized discrete problem to get a sol'n. My sheet brutally calculates all possible PA results and spits out the best one in the display. That's why it's so $#*&) big (and because of DR), sorry dialups. [CODE] opp AC 0 PA opt PA w/ PA 10 82.08 12 152.64 11 82.08 12 149.76 12 82.08 12 144.00 13 82.08 12 138.24 14 82.08 11 132.48 15 82.08 11 126.96 16 82.08 10 121.44 17 82.08 10 116.16 18 82.08 9 110.88 19 80.64 9 105.84 20 79.20 8 100.80 21 77.76 7 95.76 22 76.32 6 90.72 23 74.88 5 85.68 24 72.00 4 80.64 25 69.12 3 75.60 26 66.24 2 70.56 27 63.36 1 65.52 28 60.48 1 60.84 29 56.16 1 56.16 30 51.84 0 51.84 31 47.52 0 47.52 32 43.20 0 43.20 33 38.88 0 38.88 34 34.38 0 34.38 35 30.00 0 30.00 36 25.74 0 25.74 37 22.86 0 22.86 38 19.98 0 19.98 39 16.92 0 16.92 40 13.98 0 13.98 41 11.16 0 11.16 42 9.72 0 9.72 43 8.28 0 8.28 44 6.66 12 7.56 [/CODE] Get this far? My point: ACs 22-27 don't seem that uncommon for a level 12 encounter. This takes into account those 2nd & 3rd attacks, too. Power attack is [I]useful[/I]. Guess the AC. It makes combat a lot more interesting--makes it easier to roleplay, ironically. Here's how the same fighter does single attacking, again from the sheet on my site: [CODE] opp AC 0 PA opt PA w/ PA 10 27.36 12 54.72 11 27.36 12 54.72 12 27.36 12 54.72 13 27.36 12 54.72 14 27.36 12 54.72 15 27.36 12 54.72 16 27.36 12 54.72 17 27.36 11 52.44 18 27.36 10 50.16 19 27.36 9 47.88 20 27.36 8 45.60 21 27.36 7 43.32 22 27.36 6 41.04 23 27.36 6 38.88 24 27.36 5 36.72 25 27.36 5 34.68 26 27.36 4 32.64 27 27.36 4 30.72 28 27.36 3 28.80 29 25.92 3 27.00 30 24.48 2 25.20 31 23.04 2 23.52 32 21.60 1 21.84 33 20.16 1 20.28 34 18.72 0 18.72 35 17.28 0 17.28 36 15.84 0 15.84 37 14.40 0 14.40 38 12.96 0 12.96 39 11.52 0 11.52 40 10.08 0 10.08 41 8.64 0 8.64 42 7.20 0 7.20 43 5.76 0 5.76 44 4.14 0 4.14 45 2.64 0 2.64 46 1.26 12 2.52 [/CODE] So whereas with full attack, you are best PA-ing through AC 27, in this case you you're best through AC 31. I'd have thought the difference would be more dramatic, as jgsugden implies. Jgsugden's last two points are dead on. All IMO, of course. :confused: Edit: calculations corrected as of 3/22. Had parameterized the GS as doing 3 extra damage points/hit, which is silly. Architecture of spreadsheet unchanged. [/QUOTE]

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