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Message: <blockquote data-quote="HEL Pit Fiend" data-source="post: 302101" data-attributes="member: 5971">Pah-leez... Can I have a puff of whatever your smoking, it must be pretty good sh*t. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> No, now your assuming what I'm thinking.  I understood you clearly the first time around, I just simplified it.Here we go again, lets put this issue to a rest.  The question is NOT: What books does, or doesn't, the MaoF, FRCS require , I aready know they only require core books.Rather the question IS: What books are being used in your campaign?Let's attack this from another angle.  There are two inherent differences in the ELH from other supplimental books of its kind, they are:1. The ELH actually "retools" your campaign, actually altering whats written in other books at times, the DMG notwithstanding.2. Weighing in at a hefty 319 pages, not only will it cause MORE damage when you smack your buddy upside the head with it, it'll probably knock him out cold.Here are some concrete examples of ELH redefining other books:--- a. Random town generation (DMG, pg. 137) --> New random town generator (ELH, pg. 113) --- b. Elminster (FRCS, pg. 7) ---> New Elminster (ELH, pg. 291) Because the ELH got so big, the game designers had to limit what they put into the book, redefining everything takes up too much space (I think they had to cut 250 pages).  So to deal with the problem of space they added guidelines on how to adjust your campaign to fit Epic play, there's a section on retooling I believe.  A glaring example are the Gods from the Deities book.  They have to be revamped in an Epic world, just skimming their major magic items alone I don't think any has a weapon of greater than a +5 enhancement.  Unlikely for a God in Epic play.There are many books out there that have been written before the ELH came out and some magic items within them which are not Epic would become Epic if the ELH is used, for example:ToB ---> rods of greater, chaining, maximizing, and quickeningPsiH ---> skin of ironMaoF ---> halruaan skyshipMaoF ---> proof of transmutationThere are clear guidelines on how to handle magic items when converting your campaign to an Epic one.  I'm not arguing that Proof of Transmutation is powerful, therefore needs to be epic, not in the least.  I'm arguing that if a campaign uses the ELH, then ALL +6 armor special abilities must be "retooled" as Epic. If you feel that Proof of Transmutation is too weak to be Epic in an Epic world, then evoke the house rule, no arguements here. But if someone's campaign uses the MaoF as well as the ELH, then Proof/Trans is retooled as Epic by default as per the ELH and only a house rule can change that.</blockquote>

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