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Message: <blockquote data-quote="FrogReaver" data-source="post: 7518871" data-attributes="member: 6795602">But my point is that you can say my character is does more damage, has more uptime, gets attacked less etc but all that falls apart when you play on a team with at least 1 melee character.  At that point the party is much better off if the party doesn't play like you describe your ranged character playing.  The melee character will eventually end up dead as he's the only one taking virtually ALL the incoming damage.  However, if you have 2-3 melee characters, or ranged characters that don't super kite like you describe, then that becomes much less likely to happen as that damage that gets taken gets split between 2-3 characters instead of just 1.   Just like the real proof that melee is better is comparing them to an all ranged party pincered in a very tight twisty corridor?I don't feel like you are even trying to be realistic in what your proposed characters are doing or their ability to meaningfully kite at the ranges they will have to fight at.  You cherry picked characters that took every defensive choice possible to try and bolster your point but doing that actually made it ring hollow.  One of my original points remain, that ranged characters (with enough range and/or movement to matter for kiting purposes) either don't get the defense of a melee character or if they do they sacrifice a lot of offense to get to that point.  The characters and tactics you chose for them illustrate precisely that.But more importantly all that still doesn't rebut my main assertion that melee is superior because it allows damage to be easily spread out of different PC's resulting in much fewer team deaths.  In case you are wondering, I am measuring character strength based on how likely your team can overcome combat challenges without death.  Of course I'm not advocating for an ALL melee party, just that melee has benefits due to the team aspect of D&D that get overlooked in most analysis.I don't know that I've ever seen any decently sized group go all melee or all ranged.  That's just not the way D&D is played.  In the way D&D is played melee is just as good as ranged because while ranged can focus fire and be hit less etc etc, melee spreads attacks on the party out more which helps keep everyone alive.None of this has absolutely anything to do with D&D.  A turn based game where you typically take multiple turns to kill enemies after you start attacking them and enemies can travel hundreds of feet before death is not the same kind of thing as real life where you can spray a machine gun and kill a bunch of guys before they travel 5 ft.</blockquote>

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