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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Spatzimaus" data-source="post: 608001" data-attributes="member: 3051">Originally posted by Pax That's a pretty big "if", that 8-14 spread. Yes, but it's still a decent assumption.  74 out of 1296 times (or about 6% of the time), you'll roll below an 8.While the point-buy system makes it more painful to have those higher scores, it also guarantees you'll never have a stat below an 8.   I wrote a program to run through the 1296 combinations and see what it'd give you; the final result was 28.5 points.  That's why it's probably better to use 28 as the "normal" level, but the math is skewed by the fact that it's possible to roll below an 8.  I just assumed that 7 was worth -1, 6 worth -2, and so on, but if you assume that a 3 or 4 is REALLY debilitating (in the same way that a 17 or 18 is exceptional) it'd lower the average a bit.Anyway, this matches with Henry's earlier statement that 32-point-buy is a "very high number".  It's well above the die-rolling method, even if you assume people don't min/max.Frankly, IMO that's munchkinish levels of min/maxxing.So?  I'm not a munchkin (okay, back when I played Battletech I actually WAS a Friar in the Church of Munchkin), but when you're trying to balance two systems you can't assume people WON'T min/max.Let's put it a different way.  If you roll 4d6-drop-low, I can reproduce your results with around 28 points.  In addition, under a point-buy system I can lower stats I don't use to raise important ones even further.  I could drop three points from dump stats without substantially altering my character.  So, my ORIGINAL point was that 4-drop-low is fairly balanced against a 25-point system; referring to 25 as very low-powered isn't correct IMHO.The 10 in Strength means, he doesn't LOOK like a 90-lb weakling.  The 10 in charisma means he doesn't ACT like a bookworm-without-friends.  The 10 in wisdom means he isn't more oblivious than "most people".Sure.  I do the same.  When I had a 25-point-buy I had a 9 WIS and 12 CHA for no particular reason.  Not everyone is as enlightened as us, though, and I ended up with a character that I know would have been stronger had I used those points for other stats.The thing is, a person with an 8 in CHA isn't automatically a bookworm, and a person with an 8 in STR isn't a weakling.  They're only a little below the racial average.  If 10 STR is average, an 8 might mean you're overweight.  Not exactly a crippling drawback.Typically, I would make a spellcaster with a -sixteen-, not an 18, for their primary spellcasting attribute.  An 18 just isn't that neccesary IMO.My first 3E Sorcerer started with a 15 CHA.  I also had a 14 DEX, 14 CON, 10 STR, etc.  The problem is, most classes can get by with at most 3 stats.  Dumping the rest usually is a good move.Y'see, I look at the attributes for the WHOLE character, and I usually odn't like playing people "below normal" in several places.  I wouldn't WANT to play a Wizard with:ST 8DX 13CO 10INT 18WIS 8CHA 8That costs 25 points.  And IMO, it makes you little more than an idiot-savant.As I said above, an 8 in those other stats doesn't make you an idiot-savant.  You're a little weaker than average, a little less social, and a little less wise, just like most other intellectuals I know.  Hardly an idiot-savant.</blockquote>

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