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Is Spelljammer really that bad?
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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8852526" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>Right, you can contend the other setting needs further development, but the point would then be to prove it, or provide evidence. That was part of why I made this initial post. Many people aren't considering or counting all the lore in the Menagerie, or are discounting the lore in the adventure. People are also discounting the art, but art of a Kindori with a hut strapped to the back inspires all sorts of designs and concepts that just telling me about someone living on a Kindori might not have done. </p><p></p><p>And despite those discounts, I think there is a lot here. It is implied, not stated directly, but it is there. And so... does it need to be explicitly detailed? It would be nice, and perhaps useful, to have an additional 50 pages of randomly generated planets, but those wouldn't really change the setting, because there aren't these massive empires or other political forces that affect the whole of the setting. It is very much a setting that recognizes that for any force the PCs run into "we can just leave" is a solid and undeniably option, because the setting is infinitely big. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Right, for the MM that's fine. But, there are blessed locations in the Forgotten Realms that aren't detailed in the SCAG... however, can use Tasha's to cover them. A haunted location is certainly in Eberron, but there are no rules for it.... but I can use Tasha's. </p><p></p><p>And no one has ever claimed that a lack of mechanical things for massive storms, or magical storms, or anything else hurts a setting. But now it is hurting Spelljammer? You can run a mind flayer encounter with just the MM, but if you want a deeper mind flayer encounter, I wouldn't look to spelljammer, I'd look to the monster resources, and those resources also back track into Spelljammer. </p><p></p><p>This actually came up with Tasha's once, with why they were reprinting the Patron rules when those were in Eberron. It was rightly pointed out that those rules were generally useful, and people who weren't interested in Eberron should have them. But does that inverse? Does the existence of those rules in a generic book not count for them in the setting? They are generically useful, not setting specific. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But having read 2e writing styles, the writing is far more succinct and says far more with far fewer words. Like with the example I discussed with Max a few days ago. Largely the same information was given for Large Luigi in 2e and in 5e, but the 5e version was less verbose and more succinct. </p><p></p><p>I'm not saying that the 2e boxed set is all like this, but it is worth adding into the mix of considerations. And they mentioned page count, because that has been the obsession of the focus. But, again, I don't think page count is a sign of quality or care put into the setting. It is only a sign of how many pages they needed to get their message across. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, I see it as useful and appropriate because of the difference in scale. </p><p></p><p>Eberron is a continent. And, in actuality, only a fraction of Eberron is actually covered in the book. There are, for example, entire underwater empires Baker later expanded on, and at least three other continents. There is a lot of detail, but there is also no where else to go. If you travel in Eberron off the continent... there are only a small handful of places you could end up. </p><p></p><p>If you leave the Rock, there are an infinite number of places you could end up in Spelljammer. You are actually dealing with a real infinity here, because every setting, every plane, every everything is reachable. </p><p></p><p>In Eberron, if you put a jungle with fire spitting bulls and iron-plated beetles in a location, you have taken up space, and fewer things can now exist in Eberron. I put that place as a planet in Spelljammer... and it takes up no space. It is a drop in the nebula. It is all there, every crazy idea exists in this space, because of the nature of the space.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 8852526, member: 6801228"] Right, you can contend the other setting needs further development, but the point would then be to prove it, or provide evidence. That was part of why I made this initial post. Many people aren't considering or counting all the lore in the Menagerie, or are discounting the lore in the adventure. People are also discounting the art, but art of a Kindori with a hut strapped to the back inspires all sorts of designs and concepts that just telling me about someone living on a Kindori might not have done. And despite those discounts, I think there is a lot here. It is implied, not stated directly, but it is there. And so... does it need to be explicitly detailed? It would be nice, and perhaps useful, to have an additional 50 pages of randomly generated planets, but those wouldn't really change the setting, because there aren't these massive empires or other political forces that affect the whole of the setting. It is very much a setting that recognizes that for any force the PCs run into "we can just leave" is a solid and undeniably option, because the setting is infinitely big. Right, for the MM that's fine. But, there are blessed locations in the Forgotten Realms that aren't detailed in the SCAG... however, can use Tasha's to cover them. A haunted location is certainly in Eberron, but there are no rules for it.... but I can use Tasha's. And no one has ever claimed that a lack of mechanical things for massive storms, or magical storms, or anything else hurts a setting. But now it is hurting Spelljammer? You can run a mind flayer encounter with just the MM, but if you want a deeper mind flayer encounter, I wouldn't look to spelljammer, I'd look to the monster resources, and those resources also back track into Spelljammer. This actually came up with Tasha's once, with why they were reprinting the Patron rules when those were in Eberron. It was rightly pointed out that those rules were generally useful, and people who weren't interested in Eberron should have them. But does that inverse? Does the existence of those rules in a generic book not count for them in the setting? They are generically useful, not setting specific. But having read 2e writing styles, the writing is far more succinct and says far more with far fewer words. Like with the example I discussed with Max a few days ago. Largely the same information was given for Large Luigi in 2e and in 5e, but the 5e version was less verbose and more succinct. I'm not saying that the 2e boxed set is all like this, but it is worth adding into the mix of considerations. And they mentioned page count, because that has been the obsession of the focus. But, again, I don't think page count is a sign of quality or care put into the setting. It is only a sign of how many pages they needed to get their message across. Well, I see it as useful and appropriate because of the difference in scale. Eberron is a continent. And, in actuality, only a fraction of Eberron is actually covered in the book. There are, for example, entire underwater empires Baker later expanded on, and at least three other continents. There is a lot of detail, but there is also no where else to go. If you travel in Eberron off the continent... there are only a small handful of places you could end up. If you leave the Rock, there are an infinite number of places you could end up in Spelljammer. You are actually dealing with a real infinity here, because every setting, every plane, every everything is reachable. In Eberron, if you put a jungle with fire spitting bulls and iron-plated beetles in a location, you have taken up space, and fewer things can now exist in Eberron. I put that place as a planet in Spelljammer... and it takes up no space. It is a drop in the nebula. It is all there, every crazy idea exists in this space, because of the nature of the space. [/QUOTE]
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