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<blockquote data-quote="Firebeetle" data-source="post: 2809190" data-attributes="member: 34506">I've started the &quot;Fix the Bard&quot; thread which is here<a href="http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=157691&amp;page=1&amp;pp=40" target="_blank">http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=157691&amp;page=1&amp;pp=40</a>and I've gotten response after response, &quot;Bard's aren't broken&quot;I've already stated that the position of that particular thread is that they are and they need to be fixed, but I can't tell people to keep this irrational idea of bard adequacy alone.&nbsp; I can, however, give them a place to debate.&nbsp; So here it is.I'll cast the first stone.I love bards.&nbsp; I love to play bards.&nbsp; However, I feel that bards truly do suck.&nbsp; By being non-specialized they suck at everything.&nbsp; If you compare a 1st level bard to other classes, he sucks.&nbsp; If you compare 20th level bards to other classes, he sucks.&nbsp; Bards suck.&nbsp; Prove me wrong.Below I am quoting previous responses to the previous thread to the contrary.Yes, they are supporters.&nbsp; However, a cleric is definately better support than a bard.&nbsp; Why is that?&nbsp; When presented with a choice of having a Cleric or Bard, I don't know of a single party that would say &quot;Bard&quot; This is the age old argument &quot;Blame the DM.&quot;&nbsp; I have to disagree. A game should work regardless of the level of roleplaying elements, which are subjective and prone to unequity.&nbsp; Bard should kick @$$ outside of using Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate.That's true, but the bard does not have significant impact on a combat.&nbsp; Honestly, could someone show me, in a published adventure, where a bard has been included to &quot;toughen up&quot; an encounter.&nbsp; I can't think of a single one myself.The next is in reference to a band of gnolls with a bard.Best argument so far.&nbsp; I note there are some non-SRD things here.&nbsp; Much of this is spell based, which bards do not get until higher levels.&nbsp; I think you'll find the comparison of a bard at these levels and a sorcerer or wizard to be disappointing.Lay into it folks!</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Firebeetle, post: 2809190, member: 34506"] I've started the "Fix the Bard" thread which is here [url]http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=157691&page=1&pp=40[/url] and I've gotten response after response, "Bard's aren't broken" I've already stated that the position of that particular thread is that they are and they need to be fixed, but I can't tell people to keep this irrational idea of bard adequacy alone. I can, however, give them a place to debate. So here it is. I'll cast the first stone. I love bards. I love to play bards. However, I feel that bards truly do suck. By being non-specialized they suck at everything. If you compare a 1st level bard to other classes, he sucks. If you compare 20th level bards to other classes, he sucks. Bards suck. Prove me wrong. Below I am quoting previous responses to the previous thread to the contrary. Yes, they are supporters. However, a cleric is definately better support than a bard. Why is that? When presented with a choice of having a Cleric or Bard, I don't know of a single party that would say "Bard" This is the age old argument "Blame the DM." I have to disagree. A game should work regardless of the level of roleplaying elements, which are subjective and prone to unequity. Bard should kick @$$ outside of using Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate. That's true, but the bard does not have significant impact on a combat. Honestly, could someone show me, in a published adventure, where a bard has been included to "toughen up" an encounter. I can't think of a single one myself. The next is in reference to a band of gnolls with a bard. Best argument so far. I note there are some non-SRD things here. Much of this is spell based, which bards do not get until higher levels. I think you'll find the comparison of a bard at these levels and a sorcerer or wizard to be disappointing. Lay into it folks! [/QUOTE]

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