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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Khairn" data-source="post: 2810775" data-attributes="member: 20153">Firebeetle, I hate to say this as I love to read and participate in a passionate and well reasoned discussion into the effectiveness of character classes, but in this situation you have not proven your case to me.You have started out with the assumption that bards are broken and then challenged others to help you fix it.  Others have countered that your base assumption is incorrect and that the bard does not need to be fixed.As a long time bard player I tend to agree.  My actions are oftentimes the difference between our party surviving or not.  With my wide range of skills and abilities I am involved in almost every aspect of an encounter be it social, combat, trap, puzzle, magical or knowledge oriented.  My GM makes no "special allowances" for a bard being in the party, yet I easily find ways to be effective.Combat wise, I can't stand alone against a well played fighter (barbarian, ranger or paladin), and I will loose a mages duel with a wizard or a sorcerer, but I can hold my own against anyone else.  With me in the party, my party members are much stronger, more effective, and regularly take on higher lv CR's than our party level warrants.But that is my group, with my GM and players.  Which is where I have gained the experience that I use as the foundation for my opinion.   Your group, with your GM and your players obviously find the bard to be less effective.  You claim the bard is broken, but I haven't seen any real evidence of how.Sure, your new bard is more powerful than the 3.5 version.  There are lots of suped-up versions of ever class on the boards.  But since we find the bard to be effective as is, we'll just stick with them as they were written.</blockquote>

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