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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Primitive Screwhead" data-source="post: 2812731" data-attributes="member: 20805">For the record, you gain XP for defeating an encounter. It is explicit, but not in the SRD's, that 'defeating' is not purely violent means. If your DM choses to have only violent means for defeating things.. well.... sounds like something needs fixed! Thats what I mean by catering to the Bard. Its not about special attention. Its the same as if you have a Hunter of the Dead in the party. You design encounters to challange the make-up of the party. Hunters mean encounters with undead for them to slay. Bards means encounters that can be defeated by non-violent means.In the response to AuldGrump, its mentioned that DnD is a Dungeon Crawl. I would agree in its basic form, but it is the reponsibility of the DM to provide appropriate types of challanges for the characters being played.. and the Players have the responsiblity to play characters that fit with the rest of the group and with the theme of the campaign.  This, of course, requires that the folks actually talk to each other instead of walking in at the start of the game playing the only Lawman in a GURPS Western game of outlaws.  {funny story there.. involved a very surprised player and education on what a .30 rifle does from close range to a character with a badge... we thought he was out to get us....}  Thank you for the clarification. I agree that Bardic Music can (and should be) expanded on. More options are better. This also makes the class special in that only Bards can use this ability.  Spell lists.. I use Elements of Magic anyway <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> But yes, the Core spells do not give the Bard much distinction over a Mage. Fighting.. umm, my group freely multiclasses so if I want Fighting ability, I'd simply Multiclass to get it. The Core Bard is a fairly decent fighter as is, not front line, but not hide in the back either. Perhaps grant INT mod*2 worth of Martial Weapons and all simple weapons instead of the foppery based choices currently offered.      And, 1e Bard was indeed a fighter {he multiclassed to get it}.. the historical Bard.. the Viking/Celtic Skald, did not fight in battle. It was dishonorable to attack a Skald in combat. They were there to record the heroics of others, whether freind or foe. Not to be heroes themselves.  Bardic Knowledge...  I would agree with ignored, and swell.. but not well defined.monster's weaknesses.. are they legendary creatures? in other words, to they show up as bad guys in stories told on cold winter nights huddled up next to the hearth? If so, then they are covered.identify magic items...special items {which I think all magic weapons qualify for}.. sure.The key to Bardic knowledge is that it is not pure black and white knowledge.  Instead of the dry 'Indentify' spells results of "this is a +1 Flame Burst sword" you might get "The inscription is an archaic Flandry tongue and spells the name of 'Borimer'. Once you heard a master tell the tale of Blond Borimer and how he weilded this sword when he cleared the Dire Swamps of such creatures as the Haggis, a gangly giant-kin with green skin."... This gives you an idea of what the power could be, but not exactly.  The other key is that it is based on local folklore and legend, sometimes providing the wrong information or exaggerated information {low rolls}. Things not worthy of bar-room debate are not covered.   And note the DC's.. at 3rd level a Bard would be able to know alot of 'common' stories. The hard part is for the DM to create these stories and tie together a weave of hints and tips that can lead the group to or past encounters {incidently, 'defeating' them when bypassing them...}IMHO what it boils down to is that the Bard is harder for the GM to have in the game. It takes more prep time and work. Hence the noted lack of NPC Bards in published works. Dungeon Crawl is easy. Grab some monsters from the Manual, through together a maze and call it a dungeon. Cram some silly conceit as to why the dungeon exists.. and maybe pay attention to why the monsters are sitting in thier rooms waiting to be slain rather than out ravaging the country side. Adventuring is hard. Guild influence, political influence, fuedal land ownership, taxes, compitition, local legends.... intelligent foes that fit in the setting instead of being plunked down willy-nilly when thier CR is right. That takes work.Quoted for truth: Unorthodox <> Dungeon Crawl hack and slash... { or "beer and pretzal's" in case the H/S term doth offend  <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing    :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" /> }And lastly, 'bardly' is not a common gamer term as is hit point. HPs are well defined in the PHB glossary. 'Bardly' is a matter of opinion, much as the meaning of the class name 'Monk'.</blockquote>

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