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<blockquote data-quote="Firebeetle" data-source="post: 2812733" data-attributes="member: 34506">Hmmm, lousy hit die, no direct combat abilities, a lackluster spell list AND spell progression, the sheer rarity of a bard as either a PC or NPC?&nbsp; Shall I go on?A.) Why can a bard heal?&nbsp; Does he sing the sutures together?&nbsp; The answer: to help shore up suckage.&nbsp; A bard needs CLW to have something in common with the better party supporter, the cleric. Y'know, that class that was made more powerful so people would want to play it when they just sat around behind the rest of the party before, like bards do now.B.) as for class skills, you are forgetting the many version of Perform, all of which are seperate skills now.C.) Bardic Knowledge is so vague and undefined as to be effectively useless.&nbsp; Completely reliant on the charity of your DM.&nbsp; Almost as good as a rogue?&nbsp; At first level our rogue friend gets at least 8 more skill points and sneak attack.&nbsp; So, we square off.&nbsp; He has a higher DEX (since I went CHA), so my chainmail is about equal.&nbsp; Let's presume the standard best feat &quot;Improved Initiative&quot;&nbsp; We start combat, with a high DEX he gets the drop on me while I'm still flatfooted with a shortsword.&nbsp; Presuming he hits, I take 7 points (3.5 from the sword, 3.5 from the sneak attack) and go down.&nbsp; If he misses, his improved skill points mean that he can either feint (Bluff) or flank (Tumble) and get that sneak attack in the two rounds minimum it's going to take me to poke him with my rapier.&nbsp; Of course, I can counter mightly, if I manage the Concentration check AND spell failure chance, to hit him with a devastating ZERO level spell.&nbsp; Suckage if I ever saw it.Not according to many here, who claim suckage on a bard's part is because of the DM, not the horrendously underpowered class after all. Those activities do influence the game, but are not strong enough to do so mightly.&nbsp; Further, they are not even exclusively &quot;bardy&quot;.&nbsp; A wizard with points in Knowledge or a Charismatic rogue or sorcerer can do all that and often BETTER than a bard.&nbsp; You make it sound so equal.&nbsp; Nearly all adventures emphasize combat and dungeon-crawling, so much so that the exceptions are notable for doing so.&nbsp;But every class should be of SOME utility in a scrap.&nbsp; As a bard, my options are limited (despite my suppoused versatility) to bardic music, a spell (which will be of considerably less power than my spell-casting peers), or a combat action IF I've spent all of my feats in a chain and even then a well placed shot might off me. Suckage. What is the point of a class that, by the admission of many on this thread, is of little good in a fight because that's not &quot;his purpose&quot;.&nbsp; Give me a break.&nbsp; Half of a bard's social skills are of use to the DM and not the player, it helps unfold the story to be able to recall some ancient legend or parley past the guards.&nbsp; It speeds the plot up and keeps everything from being entrenched in combat.&nbsp; Bards are great for DMs, why shouldn't they be great for players too?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Firebeetle, post: 2812733, member: 34506"] Hmmm, lousy hit die, no direct combat abilities, a lackluster spell list AND spell progression, the sheer rarity of a bard as either a PC or NPC? Shall I go on? A.) Why can a bard heal? Does he sing the sutures together? The answer: to help shore up suckage. A bard needs CLW to have something in common with the better party supporter, the cleric. Y'know, that class that was made more powerful so people would want to play it when they just sat around behind the rest of the party before, like bards do now. B.) as for class skills, you are forgetting the many version of Perform, all of which are seperate skills now. C.) Bardic Knowledge is so vague and undefined as to be effectively useless. Completely reliant on the charity of your DM. Almost as good as a rogue? At first level our rogue friend gets at least 8 more skill points and sneak attack. So, we square off. He has a higher DEX (since I went CHA), so my chainmail is about equal. Let's presume the standard best feat "Improved Initiative" We start combat, with a high DEX he gets the drop on me while I'm still flatfooted with a shortsword. Presuming he hits, I take 7 points (3.5 from the sword, 3.5 from the sneak attack) and go down. If he misses, his improved skill points mean that he can either feint (Bluff) or flank (Tumble) and get that sneak attack in the two rounds minimum it's going to take me to poke him with my rapier. Of course, I can counter mightly, if I manage the Concentration check AND spell failure chance, to hit him with a devastating ZERO level spell. Suckage if I ever saw it. Not according to many here, who claim suckage on a bard's part is because of the DM, not the horrendously underpowered class after all. Those activities do influence the game, but are not strong enough to do so mightly. Further, they are not even exclusively "bardy". A wizard with points in Knowledge or a Charismatic rogue or sorcerer can do all that and often BETTER than a bard. You make it sound so equal. Nearly all adventures emphasize combat and dungeon-crawling, so much so that the exceptions are notable for doing so. But every class should be of SOME utility in a scrap. As a bard, my options are limited (despite my suppoused versatility) to bardic music, a spell (which will be of considerably less power than my spell-casting peers), or a combat action IF I've spent all of my feats in a chain and even then a well placed shot might off me. Suckage. What is the point of a class that, by the admission of many on this thread, is of little good in a fight because that's not "his purpose". Give me a break. Half of a bard's social skills are of use to the DM and not the player, it helps unfold the story to be able to recall some ancient legend or parley past the guards. It speeds the plot up and keeps everything from being entrenched in combat. Bards are great for DMs, why shouldn't they be great for players too? [/QUOTE]

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