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Is the Champion weak compared to Battle Master?
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<blockquote data-quote="Sword of Spirit" data-source="post: 6386592" data-attributes="member: 6677017"><p>The assumption is that the Battle Master uses all of his superiority dice. Assuming he uses at least one die every round, this will happen fairly quickly. Even if he only uses one every 2 or 3 rounds, this will still mean he will use them all up before a Champion catches up in damage output (in other words, it doesn't affect the numbers).</p><p></p><p>On the point about Champions pulling ahead of Battle Masters once they run out of dice, common sense may be technically accurate, but it is functionally ineffective. The Battle Master's superiority dice are so superior to the Champions criticals, that it takes many, many rounds for a Champion to catch up to a Battle Master who used up all his superiority dice as quickly as he could. [Edit: I just realized that you were referring to his effectiveness in damage output at that point, in the boss fight for example, and on that I would agree with you. I would also agree that it in an important consideration in actual play, as you wouldn't necessarily want to waste dice on mooks and then be at your least effective when you need it most. I left my original commentary in so others could see the distinction.]</p><p></p><p> Correct on the next point. If the Battle Master <em>does not</em> expend all of his dice before a short rest comes up, that is to the advantage of the Champion. Usually it won't be <em>enough</em> of an advantage for the Champion to catch up, but it will definitely help him out.</p><p></p><p>While the variability of short rests is a factor, when you are talking about needing 20+ rounds to catch up, it is probably going to be rare to go that long without a short rest. That would be five combats of four rounds each. Still, in marathon limited rest adventures Champion can pull ahead.</p><p></p><p>I think the most important point you make is that the degree to which a Battle Master rations his superiority dice has an effect. If the Battle Master does not use all of his dice before a short rest, the Champion needs less time to catch up. So if a player of a Battle Master is conservative with his dice, always keeping one or two in reserve, that would cause the Champion to catch up fairly regularly (I think--haven't done the math on that).</p><p></p><p>Another minor aspect in favor of the Champion is that his initiative bonus means he'll occasionally be getting in extra attacks compared to the Battle Master (due to combat being over before the Battle Master comes up in initiative in the final round).</p><p></p><p>A Battle Master who uses up his superiority dice as fast as he can is going to pull ahead in damage output under most adventuring situations. A Battle Master who holds onto those dice for just the right moment, and usually ends up with one or two left by the time a short rest comes along, is going to be more balanced in damage output with Champion, and probably more effective overall, since he'll be pulling off the right maneuvers when he needs them.</p><p></p><p>Now, were <em>I</em> playing a Battle Master, I'd likely be in the category of conserving my dice for the right moments, and therefore I wouldn't have much (or any at higher levels) higher damage output than a Champion. So for <em>me</em> they would be pretty close to balanced. It definitely does depend on how you play your Battle Master.</p><p></p><p>Thanks for the thoughts. I think they are perhaps more balanced than I thought given the actual dynamics of playing a Battle Master, and the unlikelihood that most people are picking them just so they can burst their damage output and leave Champions in the dust.</p><p></p><p>Personally I like all three of the fighter subclasses. If I was playing a multiclass fighter concept (other than Eldritch Knight) I'd almost always pick Champion because I wouldn't want to mess with maneuvers. If I were playing a single class fighter concept, I'd almost always play Battle Master because I would want to use maneuvers.</p><p></p><p><em>Practical Conclusion: A Battle Master who uses his superiority dice as quickly as possible without rationing will almost always have higher overall damage output than a Champion. Few players will actually play Battle Masters in that manner, as it negates much of their other effectiveness. Therefore in most actual scenarios the Champion is more effective than the raw damage output numbers would indicate.</em></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It doesn't apply to saves.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Sword of Spirit, post: 6386592, member: 6677017"] The assumption is that the Battle Master uses all of his superiority dice. Assuming he uses at least one die every round, this will happen fairly quickly. Even if he only uses one every 2 or 3 rounds, this will still mean he will use them all up before a Champion catches up in damage output (in other words, it doesn't affect the numbers). On the point about Champions pulling ahead of Battle Masters once they run out of dice, common sense may be technically accurate, but it is functionally ineffective. The Battle Master's superiority dice are so superior to the Champions criticals, that it takes many, many rounds for a Champion to catch up to a Battle Master who used up all his superiority dice as quickly as he could. [Edit: I just realized that you were referring to his effectiveness in damage output at that point, in the boss fight for example, and on that I would agree with you. I would also agree that it in an important consideration in actual play, as you wouldn't necessarily want to waste dice on mooks and then be at your least effective when you need it most. I left my original commentary in so others could see the distinction.] Correct on the next point. If the Battle Master [I]does not[/I] expend all of his dice before a short rest comes up, that is to the advantage of the Champion. Usually it won't be [I]enough[/I] of an advantage for the Champion to catch up, but it will definitely help him out. While the variability of short rests is a factor, when you are talking about needing 20+ rounds to catch up, it is probably going to be rare to go that long without a short rest. That would be five combats of four rounds each. Still, in marathon limited rest adventures Champion can pull ahead. I think the most important point you make is that the degree to which a Battle Master rations his superiority dice has an effect. If the Battle Master does not use all of his dice before a short rest, the Champion needs less time to catch up. So if a player of a Battle Master is conservative with his dice, always keeping one or two in reserve, that would cause the Champion to catch up fairly regularly (I think--haven't done the math on that). Another minor aspect in favor of the Champion is that his initiative bonus means he'll occasionally be getting in extra attacks compared to the Battle Master (due to combat being over before the Battle Master comes up in initiative in the final round). A Battle Master who uses up his superiority dice as fast as he can is going to pull ahead in damage output under most adventuring situations. A Battle Master who holds onto those dice for just the right moment, and usually ends up with one or two left by the time a short rest comes along, is going to be more balanced in damage output with Champion, and probably more effective overall, since he'll be pulling off the right maneuvers when he needs them. Now, were [I]I[/I] playing a Battle Master, I'd likely be in the category of conserving my dice for the right moments, and therefore I wouldn't have much (or any at higher levels) higher damage output than a Champion. So for [I]me[/I] they would be pretty close to balanced. It definitely does depend on how you play your Battle Master. Thanks for the thoughts. I think they are perhaps more balanced than I thought given the actual dynamics of playing a Battle Master, and the unlikelihood that most people are picking them just so they can burst their damage output and leave Champions in the dust. Personally I like all three of the fighter subclasses. If I was playing a multiclass fighter concept (other than Eldritch Knight) I'd almost always pick Champion because I wouldn't want to mess with maneuvers. If I were playing a single class fighter concept, I'd almost always play Battle Master because I would want to use maneuvers. [I]Practical Conclusion: A Battle Master who uses his superiority dice as quickly as possible without rationing will almost always have higher overall damage output than a Champion. Few players will actually play Battle Masters in that manner, as it negates much of their other effectiveness. Therefore in most actual scenarios the Champion is more effective than the raw damage output numbers would indicate.[/I] It doesn't apply to saves. [/QUOTE]
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