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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dr. Strangemonkey" data-source="post: 839245" data-attributes="member: 6533">I would say that the relationship of any DnD class to fantasy literature is going to be fairly nebulous.   At the very least any fantasy literature post DnD is going to have the obligation to work against the presence of DnD in the genre.For instance, someone said that there are a lot of examples of wizards who look like DnD wizards, but I would challenge anyone to come up with a solid list of wizards who weren't based out of DnD who:-memorize magic from a book-have nine levels of spells which include everything from illusion to fireballs to raising the dead, summoning monsters, and teleporting-have incredibly limited abilities outside of magic including no social, wilderness, athletic, or combat abilities to speak of-build an array of magical devices ranging from scrolls to swords-have familiars-rely on no allegiance to any sort of supernatural being for their spells-rely on no manufactured device, save for the book, for their spells-do 'rely' on various spell components ranging from dancing to consuming gems-automatically learn some spells and have to seek out others-can only resist other forms of magic through other spells, whether its the counterspell mechanic or a the 'dispel' seriesI would submit that I know of no type of wizard who fits these requirements outside of DnD.  Now I can point to a few wizards who can fit two or more of these requirements, and I can point to a few wizards that people feel fairly comfortable modeling using these requirements.The cleric on the otherhand has a few specific models that can be pointed to:      old testament prophets who do everything from fly on fire chariots, to healing people, to divination, to summoning fire, to fighting in battle alongside everyone else.  Not too mention there cleric adversaries who also have a fair amount of divine power and tend to have greater martial prowress.      Medieval warrior saints and bishops who had a fair amount of both mystical and martial power.   Many people have already pointed to the Templars, and while I think that doesn't really fit the class as well as actuall warrior clerics I wouldn't say it isn't valid.     And there are plenty of models that I can point to in the same vein as most associations of other types of wizards and DnD wizards:          Friar Tuck, St. Patrick, St. Francis, St. George, some versions of Merlin, holy men of Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, and Hindu fable and fame.  People like Van Helsing and Aramus from the heroic tradition who represent the supernatural and ecclesiastical aspects of the clergy respectively.   The common tradition throughout pulp fiction of the two-fisted priest and the church as an institution of refuge and healing.            In prior to DnD fantasy fiction there are a wealth of characters who fit the archetype of the evil cleric.  I would argue that the king of the Nazgul is more cleric than wizard and I would even argue that Gandalf appears to be more cleric than wizard in most circumstances.   The man can certainly fight, his magical prowess seems to be more protective and beneficial than offensive, and he possesses both a connection to higher powers and a magical presence that wizards lack.  Edgar Rice Burroughs and other pulp authors fill their books with characters who could not be identified as anything other than evil characters.          And as for the arcane/divine split, most magical traditions of the wester world recognize the existence of many 'types' of magic.  In the medieaval world the knowledge of the alchemists was considered very distinct from the knowledge of various holy mystics, and the power of divine authority over other forms of magic is a theme throughout the religious traditions of the Western and near Eastern, please forgive the term, world.  Even most shamanic cultures will draw a distinction between people who rely on magic based on some sort of communion and those who use magic based on personal power.        And in most of these splits those who have individual power are better at harming and those with communion based power are better at healing.        The cleric class presents a workable and valid construction of these realities into DnD fiction and narrative.  A construction that also fills an important need of the game.        Certainly, I do not dispute anyone's right to be unhappy with the cleric class or even the inclusion of these themes in the game, but it does seem difficult to justify that unhappiness on the grounds that the cleric doesn't belong.</blockquote>

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