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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Merlion" data-source="post: 840986" data-attributes="member: 10397">Well I think people are misunderstanding what I'm getting at. Perhaps I am not putting it well.  As to the Bard: The Bard has documented historical background in just about every culture, AND either the Bard concept or at the very least the concpet of music as magic as well as several other bard-type ideas show up pretty frequently in fantasy literature.  Now yes history and mythology is full of people who  could do many of the things a DnD cleric can. And fantasy literature does have characters of a religious nature, and also with healing and defensive mystical abilities rather frequently.  As to different types of magic...yes mythology and fantasy are abslutlely rife with different styles, schools, forms of magic, aproachs to magic and systems of magical operation.  As to DnD not being a generic fantasy game...well it isnt, and it is. In many ways mechanics wise it very much is. and flavour wise in some ways it is, in some ways it isnt, in some ways it tries to be, and to a large extent it doesnt seem to be able to decide which one it wants to be.  The DnD Cleric can do a LOT of stuff. Lots of hit points. All armors. decent weapons, better easily avaible.Greatest healing/curing powers in the game, bar none. probably the greatest powers of enhancement/buffing. Almost or possibly even on par with any other class in divination. And not entirly lacking in magical offense. Dr Strangemonkey I think it was you in my other thread that said they probably have the most flexible spell list. I havent personaly seen any character in fantasy literature that matchs all of those...indeed personaly I've never seen anything that comes close. In myth and religion I see one or the other of those two halves. Moses and the Jewish Rabbi's didnt wear heavy armor and werent generaly great in physical combat. the Templars couldnt implode people with a gesture or call up a massive storm of acid lightning and hail. Someone said the Cleric class is based off a character from the Song of Roland...I think thats probably true...it based on that...it is the DnD Cleric. And thats fine but 1) I think the 3e cleric is a little to powerful and B) it isnt really a general..or even semi general...fantasy/mythology archtype IMO. It can if you ignore a lot of what it has, represent a lot of the simliar ones from fantasy/mythology to an extent...but theirs some it really cant at least not well. And the image that everyone thinks of as the standard DnD Cleric is not a common/semi common mytho-fantastic archtype(IMO).  The magic system: DnD doesnt have many different forms of magic. It has Arcane Magic and Divine Magic subdivided, as far as major casters into 2 subsets of each..Wizardry/Sorcerery and Clerical/Druidical. Thats fine but especialy the two big ones are to my way of thinking atypical. they are in fact "DnD" concepts as near as I can tell. In my experince even in worlds with various types of magic, all of them could usualy pull of most of the basics...some form of attack and of defense, some healing, some divination...specfics vary a lot. Now DnD is a game, and must have rules and so it has limits as to how much it can represent and to some extent how well. but my thing is the Arcane/Divine thing, the Mages who cast spells through study or innate power and can blow things up, fly, teleport etc but who can NOT heal, cure, divine or sense good or evil or manipulate nature on one side and on the other Priests who can heal, cure, enhance, divine and do some blowing up of their own AND fight physicaly along with(and this is less part of the issue) Druids who can manipulate nature and also heal and blow things up and buff on the other is not one that IMO fits many mytho-fantastic paradigms. Of course part of this is because its a game, and the rest is because thats how the original designers wanted it..which is fine I just have some issues with it.  And as for most fantasy wizards not fitting the DnD wizard...yes I know. As I already said my point is their is still a strong family resemblence. you can still say this guy would be a wizard(or sorcerer) if he was a DnD character. Also, most of those differences are simply because DnD has game mechanics so it cant be just like "real" magic which has no such constraint.  I wish DnD was purely a generic fantasy game. its mechanics are for the most part the best out their. And I'm not talking about actual changes to the game...I know thats not going to happen. I just wished to get thoughts from the rest of the community on my thoughts. DnD may not be totaly generic but it is self-proclaimedly customizable. I'm sorry if I've like upset anyone or made anyone mad or come off like I'm complaining. I'm just bouncing my thoughts off of others...and trying to get them to understand exactly what I mean.  If that doesnt also cover everything you were wondering about as far as Bard VS Cleric Dr SMonkey just let me know <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":-)" title="Smile    :-)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":-)" /></blockquote>

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