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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Saeviomagy" data-source="post: 365100" data-attributes="member: 5890">I believe that, from a purely mechanical viewpoint, the cleric is broken. I don't believe that mechanics should be balanced by roleplaying concerns (because they vary from campaign to campaign)I believe that for the following reasons:1. A cleric's spellcasting is (at the very least) on a par with the spellcasting of a mage. Each has strengths and weaknesses, but the cleric is not a significantly worse caster. This takes into account the ability of a cleric to miss out on sleep, cast in armour, spontaneously cast and always have access to almost all the spells on their list, along with the actual spells present on the list.2. The ability of a mage to have a familiar is as much a hindrance as a help.3. The cleric gets a number of non-spellcasting perks: Twice the HPs, 1 1/2 times the BAB, and extra 'good' save, armour feats, weapon feats, turning, plus domain abilities. The wizard gets 5 bonus feats spread over 20 levels. I don't feel that these equal out.4. The cleric skill list is only fractionally worse than the wizard spell list.5. A clerics casting stat affects their will saves. A wizard's casting stat affects their skill ranks. The balance goes to the wizard here.6. A cleric loses only the potential to turn high-level undead if he takes a prestige class giving +1 spellcaster levels. A wizard loses feats, and his familiar becomes even more of a burden.I believe that these qualities represent the best possible combination of minimal disadvantages and maximum advantages. The cleric character attains the same level of power as a high level wizard with none of the drawbacks present in playing a wizard. If I proposed a character class which was a wizard, with high damage spells like fireball, cone of cold and horrid wilting removed from his list, who could cast in armour, got a 3/4 BAB, and had 2 good saves, I'd be immediately branded as a munchkin with good reason, and I've only given him half the benefits the cleric has.I think that ONE of the following should be done:1. Replace the current cleric with a class much closer to the mage. Same spell list (possibly even improve it slightly. Slightly) Hps 1d4, no armour proficiency, minimal weapon proficiency, one good save, turning, spontaeneous healing. Extra spellcasting feats at higher levels. If you want to play the current cleric, you would simply have to multiclass between this class and fighter.2. Institute a rigid system for determining a cleric's standing with his god. If anyone here has seen the rules from EarthDawn for handling questors, that's similar to what I'd use. Essentially the cleric would have some sort of 'faithfulness' score which would regulate the level of powers he currently has access to. If he acts according to his faith, he gains points. If he acts contrary to his faith (even through inaction) he loses points. For instance, a cleric of pelor would gain points for going out of his way to destroy undead, and would lose points for suffering them to live. A cleric of travel would gain points for going on long journeys, and assisting travellers, and would lose points for settling down, ignoring travellers in need etc.The greater the deed/misdeed, the greater the adjustment in points.Points adjustments would occur regardless of the consequences to the cleric. If the cleric of pelor above was to refrain from attacking undead on the grounds that he would almost certainly be killed, then he is showing a weakness in his faith. He will lose points. There is nothing stopping him from gaining them back later through multiple minor acts.The type of acts that the cleric's faith requires would be based upon which domains the cleric has. Hence even a godless cleric (the ultimate munchkin tool) would be required to follow the tenets of his faith or risk losing his spellcasting abilities.</blockquote>

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