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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Poltergeist" data-source="post: 372505" data-attributes="member: 2903">I would have to say depends...In my humble opinion, the cleric is just like nearly any other class.  If played from a total min-maxed perspective, it can be powerful.  If played from an average perspective, it is well balanced against the other classes.  This also depends on the DM.  The reasons I feel the class is not unbalanced:1)  Spontaneous Casting.  This avoids the old "I have prepared nothing but cure spells" with which clerics used to be saddled.  Spontaneous casting lets the cleric do some other things then play combat medic, but allow them to fill the combat medic role even if they haven't prepared specifically "cure" spells.  Does anyone remember playing clerics in the old versions of D & D?  It was not a lot of fun to do nothing but cure your companions and have no other real role/function.  Additionally, cure spells themselves are frequently underpowered compared to wizard damage dealing spells of the same level and have no range.  Cure serious wounds, a 3rd level spell, will cure 3d8 + caster's level in damage.  At minimum casting level, this would cure an average of 17 points damage to one target on touch.  Fireball, the signature damage spell of a 5th level wizard, will do an average of 15 (well 17, technically) points damage per target in the blast area.  This can be dozens of targets.2)  Undead Turning.  I have always found it interesting to see people reference undead turning as one of the overpowering effects of the cleric while saying that rangers are underpowered because their preferred enemy ability only comes into play when the GM puts them up against their preferred enemy.  This is the same case with turning undead.  It is only power relative to the frequency of undead in your campaign, is usuable only a certain number of times per day that does not increase per level, and can be rendered near useless through effects like unhallow and turn resistance.  Non-core sources, such as Defenders of the Faith, and the Kingdoms of Kalamar Player's Guide, offer some alternative uses for "channeling positive energy" but these usually require at least one feat (and sometimes more) as prerequisites and are still only useful in specific circumstances.3)  Casting in heavy armor.  First of all, good AC is absolutely necessary for someone who is going to be running around the battle field healing their comrades.  Although casting on the defensive helps avoid the casting attack of opportunity, moving through a crowded battle field can still provoke many attacks due to moving through a threatened area.  Additionally, armor has its own set of penalties.  Stealth is utterly impossible, water traps are death traps, you have to sleep with it off or suffer fatigue penalties (and sleeping without your armor can be a nightmare in a dungeon or wilderness area), if you get taken by surprise and have to put it on it takes long enough that fourteen encounters might occur while you do that, etc. etc.  All the wizards who complain about clerics casting in armor are also entitled to laugh when the cleric plunges to the bottom of a lake like a rock. Additionally, clerics will almost always be in heavy armor which lowers their movement rate, limits their sprint speed, and adds encumberance.  4)  Domains.  The core domains are not terribly powerful.  Overpowered domains do appear occasionally in non-source books.  Core domains generally either have a good granted power or good spells but not both.  Domain spells give the cleric one additional spell per spell level per day, and the granted power either tends to be something really nifty that will only be useful occasionally or something that will be useful frequently but is not terribly impressive.  The increased number of spells per day granted by the domain power balances out the fact that, in general, the cleric will be using at least some cure spells to keep their fellows standing.  Additionally, it lets the cleric have at least of *little* flavor of the god they serve.5)  Stat Needs.  To be his most effective, a cleric needs a high wisdom and a decent charisma.  These are often used as "dump stats" by other classes as their role in general play can be quite limited, particularly that of charisma (depending on the DM).  Wisdom affects some skills, most of which are not class skills for the cleric, and your will saving throw.  Charisma affects some skills, again most of which are not class skills for the cleric, and that's about it.  Strength increased damage, attack bonus, carrying capacity, and many skills.  Dexterity increases AC, initiative, reflex saving throw, and many skills.  Constitution increases hit points and fort save, as well as concentration skill which is important for casters.  Intelligence increases skill points (and over the long run, can increase skill points by a huge margin) and affects important skills.  Wisdom and Charisma are less "universally useful".6)  Buff spells.  I may be missing something here, but I do not see the buff spells as overpowered in the least.  Wizards, sorcerers, and bards have access to the same stat buffing spell that clerics do for the most part.  The spells that give enchancement bonuses to weapons or armor (magic weapon, etc) pretty much only give an equivalent bonus to the power level of an item that a PC would reasonably possess at the level that they can cast it.  Because of this, the weapon and armor buffing spells are only useful insofar as the character does not possess a magical item of the equivalent quality and therefore may seem powerful in a very low magic campaign.  However, I feel that most MM monsters are designed with the anticipation that characters will have gear as deemed appropriate for their level so even in a low magic campaign this should not be unbalancing.  Other spells that affect the entire party (bless, pray) have short durations and do not have huge effects.  Those that effect the cleric only (divine power, etc) have short durations.  7)  The Harm spell.  You didn't really think I was going to open that vicious can of worms, did you?  8)  Alignment restrictions. While the cleric class does not have alignment restrictions per se, their is the inherent restriction of keeping their alignment within one step of their dieties.  More than one step away, no spells.  Depending on the nature of the campaign, tracking of alignment, etc. this can become a complicating issue.In summary, I feel like the cleric balances well agains the other classes.  I think that the feeling that it unbalances against the other classes has to do more with the "old world view" of cleric as "combat medic only" or a combination of factors such as the character being profoundly min-maxed, having unbalanced core domains, and the DM making choices that enhance the clerics effectiveness (tons of undead 'round every corner, no penalties for sleeping in armor, never a river needing to be swum through, etc. etc).  Like any other class, the cleric has strengths and weaknesses and their effectiveness depends on how the character is designed, how he is played, and the world in which the DM places him.</blockquote>

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