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General Tabletop Discussion
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Is the Default Playstyle of 5E "Monty Haul?"
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<blockquote data-quote="dave2008" data-source="post: 8822769" data-attributes="member: 83242"><p>[USER=42040]@Retreater[/USER]: Thank you for the in depth response! Here are my thoughts.</p><p></p><p>If it is boring, don't do it. There are definitely more interesting ways to tackle the situation. On the other hand, if disturbing the rest was the only goal, which it seemed it was from your previous post, then mission accomplished from that perspective.</p><p></p><p>Remember when you complained that in PF2e you couldn't have monsters come and reinforce an encounter or it would be a TPK. Well 5e is just the opposite, all the noise of breaking down those doors attracts a lot of attention! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>To be clear, I am not saying do this all the time. Just enough to remind them that resting in a dungeon can be dangerous!</p><p></p><p>But that is not a ridiculous combat by 5e standards with the numbers in the DMG. A CR16 monster is a reasonable challenge for a group of (4) 6th level PCs. Again I will point you to <a href="https://dmdave.com/epic-encounters-for-5e/?" target="_blank">How to Create Epic Encounters</a> by DMDave.</p><p></p><p>If you feel this is a ridiculous encounter than it suggests to me you have not tuned your expectations to what 5e provides and need to increase your encounter difficulty in general.</p><p></p><p>OK I misunderstood what you were talking about. we don't use the long rest options for spells and class features. We don't see the need to. Since I misunderstood, what was your issue with rests and magic?</p><p></p><p>No, see above. I misunderstood.</p><p></p><p>I haven't run the numbers with our group, but I think we average about 50% both ways. On typical encounters the PCs hit 60-70% of he time, but on difficult encounters the PCs hit 30-40% of the time. You can just about flip that for the monsters.</p><p></p><p>Take your Marilith example:</p><p>The demon as an 18 AC with a +5 parry for an effective AC of 23 (note I give my Mariliths parry on melee and ranged attacks). Of course this only effective for one per turn.</p><p>A 6th level PC has about a +8 to hit with a max ability score and needs a 15 to hit (30%) on the first attack and a 10 to hit (55%) if they have a 2nd attack, for an average 42.5% chance to hit.</p><p></p><p>On the opposite side a 6th PC might have a AC of 18+/- and 50+/- HP vs the Marilith's +9 to hit (55%) which gets about a 50 adjusted DPR (from a 93 calculated DPR). About a PC down per turn.</p><p></p><p>I do think this is a problem, mostly at higher levels. The damage is there, but it is spread over to many attacks for my liking. Is to adjust, but it is a bother to some.</p><p></p><p>Obviously if you are using an encounter budget scaled to actually threaten your PCs (like the Marilith) they can do a lot of damage.</p><p></p><p>Those could work, but it seems it would be better to recalibrate what you think is a reasonable vs ridiculous encounter/combat first and see how that goes. You seem to think the Marilith is a ridiculous encounter for 6th lvl PCs when, by the numbers in the DMG, is a reasonable encounter. Tougher monsters also takes care of most of the defense, attack, saving throw, and damage issues you are describing. Maybe not completely (or maybe it does), but it definitely helps!</p><p></p><p>I don't know what to tell. It works for my group (we are level 15) and a lot of other people on these forums have had success too.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="dave2008, post: 8822769, member: 83242"] [USER=42040]@Retreater[/USER]: Thank you for the in depth response! Here are my thoughts. If it is boring, don't do it. There are definitely more interesting ways to tackle the situation. On the other hand, if disturbing the rest was the only goal, which it seemed it was from your previous post, then mission accomplished from that perspective. Remember when you complained that in PF2e you couldn't have monsters come and reinforce an encounter or it would be a TPK. Well 5e is just the opposite, all the noise of breaking down those doors attracts a lot of attention! ;) To be clear, I am not saying do this all the time. Just enough to remind them that resting in a dungeon can be dangerous! But that is not a ridiculous combat by 5e standards with the numbers in the DMG. A CR16 monster is a reasonable challenge for a group of (4) 6th level PCs. Again I will point you to [URL='https://dmdave.com/epic-encounters-for-5e/?']How to Create Epic Encounters[/URL] by DMDave. If you feel this is a ridiculous encounter than it suggests to me you have not tuned your expectations to what 5e provides and need to increase your encounter difficulty in general. OK I misunderstood what you were talking about. we don't use the long rest options for spells and class features. We don't see the need to. Since I misunderstood, what was your issue with rests and magic? No, see above. I misunderstood. I haven't run the numbers with our group, but I think we average about 50% both ways. On typical encounters the PCs hit 60-70% of he time, but on difficult encounters the PCs hit 30-40% of the time. You can just about flip that for the monsters. Take your Marilith example: The demon as an 18 AC with a +5 parry for an effective AC of 23 (note I give my Mariliths parry on melee and ranged attacks). Of course this only effective for one per turn. A 6th level PC has about a +8 to hit with a max ability score and needs a 15 to hit (30%) on the first attack and a 10 to hit (55%) if they have a 2nd attack, for an average 42.5% chance to hit. On the opposite side a 6th PC might have a AC of 18+/- and 50+/- HP vs the Marilith's +9 to hit (55%) which gets about a 50 adjusted DPR (from a 93 calculated DPR). About a PC down per turn. I do think this is a problem, mostly at higher levels. The damage is there, but it is spread over to many attacks for my liking. Is to adjust, but it is a bother to some. Obviously if you are using an encounter budget scaled to actually threaten your PCs (like the Marilith) they can do a lot of damage. Those could work, but it seems it would be better to recalibrate what you think is a reasonable vs ridiculous encounter/combat first and see how that goes. You seem to think the Marilith is a ridiculous encounter for 6th lvl PCs when, by the numbers in the DMG, is a reasonable encounter. Tougher monsters also takes care of most of the defense, attack, saving throw, and damage issues you are describing. Maybe not completely (or maybe it does), but it definitely helps! I don't know what to tell. It works for my group (we are level 15) and a lot of other people on these forums have had success too. [/QUOTE]
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