Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Is the imbalance between classes in 5e accidental or by design?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8762025" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>IMO, the first and second are only half-true. IMO, #3 isn't true at all, but as requested, I'll leave that aside.</p><p></p><p>But it's important to note, "it was designed that way" <em>does not mean</em> "the designers knowingly <em>wanted</em> it that way." Instead, it could be subconscious bias. From Rob Heinsoo's interview about the design for 4e, <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20090603102932/http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4spot/20090313" target="_blank">archived here</a>, we can see how this <em>almost</em> happened even then:</p><p></p><p>We have little reason to doubt him...and it seems just as likely that 5e experienced the same push, but had no Heinsoo to push back.</p><p></p><p>I doubt it was active effort. I truly believe the designers want a balanced game with equitable character power. But tradition, unconscious bias, and subconscious acts continuously push "magic" (read: spellcasting) higher, and thus weaken non-"magic" by comparison. Wizards, the effective "specialists" (more on that later!) in using spells, are inherently buoyed by anything which boosts magic overall.</p><p></p><p>They clearly tried to both cut down on caster power (fewer slots, only cantrips auto-scale, hard to raise your spell DC, etc.) and add new limits (Concentration.) Such things are silly if the goal is greater spellcaster power. So, was it covert intent, subconscious actions/biases, or accident?</p><p></p><p>I think we can rule out covert intent right away, simply on charity and respect. I just can't imagine them rubbing their hands with glee about deceiving players into thinking fighters and wizards are equal while knowing they aren't. Likewise, "accident" seems much too uncharitable. I certainly think they had some foolish accidents they <em>should</em> have foreseen, e.g. the "ghoul surprise," but I can't see them so foolish as to stumble butt-first into this situation. Which leaves subconscious acts and bias, augmented by "tradition" and other things. Given the Heinsoo interview, we even have precedent for this pattern.</p><p></p><p>So: Yes. I 100% believe that this was "designed intentionally," but I <em>do not</em> believe that "intentionally" there <em>means</em> "we explicitly want wizards to be the best class in the game." I think that what it <em>actually</em> means is powering up individual spells without heed for how that powers up magic generally. That it means underestimating the power gap in past editions, and thus barely shifting casters down or non-casters up. That it reflects (long-standing) unwarranted skepticism of "always-on" power, and (likewise long-standing) unwarranted permissiveness with power gated by daily resources. That it comes from not understanding the math/stats behind features (e.g. Champion's crit range bonus is <em>horribly</em> weak.)</p><p></p><p>As a result, I was forced to vote "any imbalance between the classes is on purpose," even though I DON'T believe it was <em>conscious</em> purpose. Instead, I believe that their explicit and genuine intent was NOT to make unbalanced classes, but their subconscious impulses pushed them continuously away from balance in a way that favored spellcasters over non-spellcasters.</p><p></p><p>Which brings me to something I said I would cover later: wizards as the "specialist in magic" (or, rather, specialist in <em>spellcasting</em>.) Only Land druids can match wizards for daily spells cast. This results in de-flavoring the wizard (it gets essentially zero features to support its bookish, academia-driven, "ivory tower researcher" theme) while at the same time <em>empowering</em> it, which is the worst of both worlds. Spellcasting has always been very powerful. 5e very, <em>very</em> slightly blunted that power, without meaningfully addressing the real issue, which is that non-spellcasting characters are simply not capable of affecting the world on the same level as spellcasting characters, <em>especially</em> full casters.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 8762025, member: 6790260"] IMO, the first and second are only half-true. IMO, #3 isn't true at all, but as requested, I'll leave that aside. But it's important to note, "it was designed that way" [I]does not mean[/I] "the designers knowingly [I]wanted[/I] it that way." Instead, it could be subconscious bias. From Rob Heinsoo's interview about the design for 4e, [URL='https://web.archive.org/web/20090603102932/http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4spot/20090313']archived here[/URL], we can see how this [I]almost[/I] happened even then: We have little reason to doubt him...and it seems just as likely that 5e experienced the same push, but had no Heinsoo to push back. I doubt it was active effort. I truly believe the designers want a balanced game with equitable character power. But tradition, unconscious bias, and subconscious acts continuously push "magic" (read: spellcasting) higher, and thus weaken non-"magic" by comparison. Wizards, the effective "specialists" (more on that later!) in using spells, are inherently buoyed by anything which boosts magic overall. They clearly tried to both cut down on caster power (fewer slots, only cantrips auto-scale, hard to raise your spell DC, etc.) and add new limits (Concentration.) Such things are silly if the goal is greater spellcaster power. So, was it covert intent, subconscious actions/biases, or accident? I think we can rule out covert intent right away, simply on charity and respect. I just can't imagine them rubbing their hands with glee about deceiving players into thinking fighters and wizards are equal while knowing they aren't. Likewise, "accident" seems much too uncharitable. I certainly think they had some foolish accidents they [I]should[/I] have foreseen, e.g. the "ghoul surprise," but I can't see them so foolish as to stumble butt-first into this situation. Which leaves subconscious acts and bias, augmented by "tradition" and other things. Given the Heinsoo interview, we even have precedent for this pattern. So: Yes. I 100% believe that this was "designed intentionally," but I [I]do not[/I] believe that "intentionally" there [I]means[/I] "we explicitly want wizards to be the best class in the game." I think that what it [I]actually[/I] means is powering up individual spells without heed for how that powers up magic generally. That it means underestimating the power gap in past editions, and thus barely shifting casters down or non-casters up. That it reflects (long-standing) unwarranted skepticism of "always-on" power, and (likewise long-standing) unwarranted permissiveness with power gated by daily resources. That it comes from not understanding the math/stats behind features (e.g. Champion's crit range bonus is [I]horribly[/I] weak.) As a result, I was forced to vote "any imbalance between the classes is on purpose," even though I DON'T believe it was [I]conscious[/I] purpose. Instead, I believe that their explicit and genuine intent was NOT to make unbalanced classes, but their subconscious impulses pushed them continuously away from balance in a way that favored spellcasters over non-spellcasters. Which brings me to something I said I would cover later: wizards as the "specialist in magic" (or, rather, specialist in [I]spellcasting[/I].) Only Land druids can match wizards for daily spells cast. This results in de-flavoring the wizard (it gets essentially zero features to support its bookish, academia-driven, "ivory tower researcher" theme) while at the same time [I]empowering[/I] it, which is the worst of both worlds. Spellcasting has always been very powerful. 5e very, [I]very[/I] slightly blunted that power, without meaningfully addressing the real issue, which is that non-spellcasting characters are simply not capable of affecting the world on the same level as spellcasting characters, [I]especially[/I] full casters. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Is the imbalance between classes in 5e accidental or by design?
Top