Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Is the imbalance between classes in 5e accidental or by design?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8764029" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>[USER=7030563]@ECMO3[/USER]</p><p></p><p>Re: limited by spells prepared, this ignores the power and utility of rituals. <em>Comprehend languages</em>, for example, might not absolutely slam-dunk resolve a "negotiate with gnolls" situation, but it will absolutely solve a huge amount of it for ten minutes' effort.</p><p></p><p>Further, you mention the "flexibility" (not meaning scare quotes, just using your term) of the Ranger class, adapting to a campaign <em>across several levels</em>, rather than all at once. For a game where things like "negotiate with gnolls" becomes an important occurrence, even an Evoker Wizard can adapt to suit the campaign better just by picking better spells: they don't need to be Batman Wizard, they just need to exploit the fundamental flexibility of "being a full spellcaster" to acquire a couple useful non-combat spells per spell level, especially if any of those spells are also rituals and thus don't need slots.</p><p></p><p>E.g., say you start off intending to go Evoker, max specialized in pumping out the <em>phat deeps</em>, only to learn that combats happen about once every three adventuring days and you mostly are doing survivalist stuff, exploration, investigations, and frequent (albeit not <em>every</em> day) diplomatic talks. You took only damage cantrips (<em>firebolt, sword burst</em>, and <em>frostbite</em>, say) and combat-related spells at 1st level (<em>chromatic orb, grease, magic missile, shield, sleep, Tasha's hideous laughter</em>.) By the time you reach 2nd level you realize <em>oh</em>, this isn't that kind of campaign, you need utility options and combat options shouldn't be your focus. Your 2nd level spell choices are <em>comprehend languages</em> and <em>find familiar</em>, and you pick Divination instead of Evocation. These are extremely excellent utility spells for this kind of campaign (social/exploration/investigation-heavy) and also rituals, so you don't even have to sacrifice your damage capacity in order to benefit from them. At 3rd level, pick up <em>scorching ray</em> and <em>borrowed knowledge</em> (and swap out <em>sword burst</em> and <em>frostbite</em> for <em>light</em> and <em>prestidigitation</em> with your next two long rests), and at 4th level <em>mind spike</em> and <em>enhance ability</em> (or <em>invisibility</em> if stealth is more valuable) while grabbing <em>mage hand</em> as your fourth cantrip.</p><p></p><p>Purely through built-in spell gains and changing up your intended subclass (as you did in your example), this character that started out intending to be a blaster has become an excellent support-utility caster well-tailored to the specific campaign. THAT is the problem here. It's not that the Wizard is being presumed to have every single spell on their spell list. It's that they can have a <em>massive</em> focus on combat at level 1 and then pivot to being excellent in social and investigatory situations, or vice-versa. It's not a magical "I can have every spell at all times!" It's that with Wizard Level + Int mod prepared spells--starting at 4/6 spells at level 1 and rising to 8/12 spells at level 4 (assuming you start with 16 Int and take +2 Int at level 4, which...why wouldn't you?) is huge and quite able to prepare for two or even three different distinct campaign foci.* Prepare everything but <em>comprehend languages, find familiar, grease,</em> and <em>sleep</em>, and you still have an excellent spell kit. You still have several excellent combat spells (<em>shield, scorching ray, chromatic orb</em>), while having several excellent generalist pure-utility spells. If the DM is nice to you and lets you swap out some spells, you might try dropping <em>grease</em> for <em>silvery barbs</em> (and thus probably leave <em>Tasha's hideous laughter</em> not-prepared), but frankly you don't really need to give up terribly many of the spells you have on hand.</p><p></p><p>Now. What can the (non-spellcasting) Fighter do that is even remotely equivalent to that? Switch from planning to be a Champion to planning to be a Battle Master?</p><p></p><p>*And because you have Arcane Recovery, you actually get ceiling(Wizard Level/2) levels' worth extra spell slots, albeit no higher than 5th level. So a 4th level Wizard has essentially eight spell slots (or nine, I guess, if you <em>really</em> need two 1st-level spells more than one 2nd-level spell.) Once you get your second Divination feature, you get <em>even more</em> effective slots, since casting a divination spell...<em>such as mind spike</em>...allows you to recover a slot of up to 1 level lower than the one you just used.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 8764029, member: 6790260"] [USER=7030563]@ECMO3[/USER] Re: limited by spells prepared, this ignores the power and utility of rituals. [I]Comprehend languages[/I], for example, might not absolutely slam-dunk resolve a "negotiate with gnolls" situation, but it will absolutely solve a huge amount of it for ten minutes' effort. Further, you mention the "flexibility" (not meaning scare quotes, just using your term) of the Ranger class, adapting to a campaign [I]across several levels[/I], rather than all at once. For a game where things like "negotiate with gnolls" becomes an important occurrence, even an Evoker Wizard can adapt to suit the campaign better just by picking better spells: they don't need to be Batman Wizard, they just need to exploit the fundamental flexibility of "being a full spellcaster" to acquire a couple useful non-combat spells per spell level, especially if any of those spells are also rituals and thus don't need slots. E.g., say you start off intending to go Evoker, max specialized in pumping out the [I]phat deeps[/I], only to learn that combats happen about once every three adventuring days and you mostly are doing survivalist stuff, exploration, investigations, and frequent (albeit not [I]every[/I] day) diplomatic talks. You took only damage cantrips ([I]firebolt, sword burst[/I], and [I]frostbite[/I], say) and combat-related spells at 1st level ([I]chromatic orb, grease, magic missile, shield, sleep, Tasha's hideous laughter[/I].) By the time you reach 2nd level you realize [I]oh[/I], this isn't that kind of campaign, you need utility options and combat options shouldn't be your focus. Your 2nd level spell choices are [I]comprehend languages[/I] and [I]find familiar[/I], and you pick Divination instead of Evocation. These are extremely excellent utility spells for this kind of campaign (social/exploration/investigation-heavy) and also rituals, so you don't even have to sacrifice your damage capacity in order to benefit from them. At 3rd level, pick up [I]scorching ray[/I] and [I]borrowed knowledge[/I] (and swap out [I]sword burst[/I] and [I]frostbite[/I] for [I]light[/I] and [I]prestidigitation[/I] with your next two long rests), and at 4th level [I]mind spike[/I] and [I]enhance ability[/I] (or [I]invisibility[/I] if stealth is more valuable) while grabbing [I]mage hand[/I] as your fourth cantrip. Purely through built-in spell gains and changing up your intended subclass (as you did in your example), this character that started out intending to be a blaster has become an excellent support-utility caster well-tailored to the specific campaign. THAT is the problem here. It's not that the Wizard is being presumed to have every single spell on their spell list. It's that they can have a [I]massive[/I] focus on combat at level 1 and then pivot to being excellent in social and investigatory situations, or vice-versa. It's not a magical "I can have every spell at all times!" It's that with Wizard Level + Int mod prepared spells--starting at 4/6 spells at level 1 and rising to 8/12 spells at level 4 (assuming you start with 16 Int and take +2 Int at level 4, which...why wouldn't you?) is huge and quite able to prepare for two or even three different distinct campaign foci.* Prepare everything but [I]comprehend languages, find familiar, grease,[/I] and [I]sleep[/I], and you still have an excellent spell kit. You still have several excellent combat spells ([I]shield, scorching ray, chromatic orb[/I]), while having several excellent generalist pure-utility spells. If the DM is nice to you and lets you swap out some spells, you might try dropping [I]grease[/I] for [I]silvery barbs[/I] (and thus probably leave [I]Tasha's hideous laughter[/I] not-prepared), but frankly you don't really need to give up terribly many of the spells you have on hand. Now. What can the (non-spellcasting) Fighter do that is even remotely equivalent to that? Switch from planning to be a Champion to planning to be a Battle Master? *And because you have Arcane Recovery, you actually get ceiling(Wizard Level/2) levels' worth extra spell slots, albeit no higher than 5th level. So a 4th level Wizard has essentially eight spell slots (or nine, I guess, if you [I]really[/I] need two 1st-level spells more than one 2nd-level spell.) Once you get your second Divination feature, you get [I]even more[/I] effective slots, since casting a divination spell...[I]such as mind spike[/I]...allows you to recover a slot of up to 1 level lower than the one you just used. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Is the imbalance between classes in 5e accidental or by design?
Top