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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jago" data-source="post: 6908941" data-attributes="member: 6855130">Then we will have to agree to disagree, here. As a Core Class, I feel Metamagic alone does not really set them apart from:- Warlocks basically getting free spells and mini-meta from Invocations, on top of recharging every short rest so they're basically always locked and loaded, and bonus spells from their Patron.- Bards getting a ton of core features that allow them to remain incredibly flexible and yet they can narrow into a focus (such as Magical Thief or Magus) and then the ability to cherry-pick spells from anyone's list, as well as the win that is Bardic Inspiration- And the sheer vast amount of spells a Wizard is going to know on top of Arcane Recovery which I feel is on par with Sorcery Points since you're eating through those to rechannel spell slots and fuel your metamagic, whereas a Wizard just ... does it. even their Capstone abilities of Spell Mastery and Signature Spells are way better than "Here's some extra Sorcery Points". On top of this, while the Warlock doesn't get Rituals because they refresh every short rest, the Bard and the Wizard do, saving even further on those precious spell slots that a Sorcerer is burning through post haste because they're not a Ritual Caster and they have to burn Sorcery Points to recovery Spell Slots. Points they need to fuel Metamagic.I know I keep going back to the Wizard, but the Wizard really is the direct comparison.You want to play a Summoner? Sorcerer cannot do this effectively, so play a Wizard. You want to play an Enchanter? Sorcerer pales compared to Bard, Archfey Warlock, and Wizard. Even a Wizard Evoker basically gets the Careful Spell Metamagic for free with Sculpt Spells, without spending Sorcery Points, and that specifically states that creatures that auto-save at your choice take no damage, where Careful Spell does not say this.If I want to play an Enchanter, or Illusionist, and Bard, Warlock, and Wizard can do this effectively but Sorcerer cannot, that's an issue. 3/4 can with very little difficulty. By 3rd Level, the Bard knows 6 Spells compared to the Sorcerer's 4. Six! And Rituals! Sure, the Sorcerer gains 2 more Cantrips, but that's ... not really an equal trade. Sure, Metamagic allows pure, raw damage potential. Empowered Spell can be combined with any other option, that's cool. But no other options can be combined. What about Subtle Twinned? Or Quickened Heightened? You already have a tiny reservoir of power that needs to do a lot of things, why not at least let us go wild with it? Aside from the Blaster Mage, the Sorcerer cannot do most other things effectively. They can attempt these things, like noted with a "Magical Thief" build of needing 7 spells to make it work, which a Sorcerer won't have until 6th Level and that's if they're basically wasting all their spell choices on 1st Level Spells ... But again, that's an attempt. Those same 7 Spells, the Wizards knows at Level 2. And he specialized further in being really, really good at those spells. Metamagic alone is not a saving grace, and if you took it away, the class is basically shattered. Take away a Fighter's Action Surge and Second Wind, and they're still a workable, decent Class that can serve in many roles. Or hell, get rid of every Wizard Arcane Tradition, and they're still a workable, decent Class. Metamagic is literally all the Sorcerer has going for it to give it an edge, and in the end it's still blunted compared to the others.I know I'm basically complaining a lot, but I do like a lot of the solutions posited here, and I think a few, key changes would help give the class some better groundings.1.) No need for a Focus. Sorcerers cast from themselves, not through a stick or a necklace.2.) Each Origin should provide bonus spells that do not count against Spells Known, flavoring the Origin further. Storm should have kept their stuff like Thunderwave and Chain Lightning. Draconic should have spells like Fly and things related to their element. Wild Mage should... be Wild. Someone said the idea of like rolling for Wild Mage bonus spells, I kinda like that. I don't like the Wild Mage, but the extra spells would at least allow more diversity. If just knowing the spells is too powerful, at least do like the Warlock and put them on the list to be available so they have the option to grab things like Faerie Fire or Dissonant Whispers.3.) More Sorcery Points. If the key feature of the Class is Metamagic and Flexible Casting, Sorcerers should be starting with 4 of these suckers and going from there, allowing them to recover 2 1st Level spells out the door. If they're being stymied by the idea of "My spell list is small" and bonus spells are considered too powerful or unbalancing, then at least let the class fire more times than any other. There's something to be said for Flexible Casting when you know you can get off another casting of Invisibility or being confident that you can Quicken your Scorching Ray quite a few times per day. 4.) Better Metamagic Uses, as the OP started this thread with. If we get more Sorcery Points, allow better combinations of Metamagic. Subtle Distant, or Extended Heightened. I don't really see these as inherently gamebreaking options and hell, they're burning through a limited resource anyway. But this allows for that expansion of concepts without needing to add in a bunch of Bonus Spells (again, if that is considered unbalancing), because yeah, now I can totally play a Summoner with Quickened Extended creatures, or a Magical Thief with Subtle Distant applications of Sleep and Mage Hand, or Extended Quickened Twinned Invisibility.I've waxed on a bit, and I'm not trying to start an argument or the like: I do apologize if I am coming off strongly. I speak with passion and I don't mean to ruffle any feathers or the like.But, I cannot agree that the Sorcerer as a Class is a viable option for many builds when compared to our other Arcane Full Casters. They just have so little going for them and I don't think the limited spell selection, limited spells known, and lackluster Class features are offset by Metamagic and a very limited pool of Sorcery Points.</blockquote>

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