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<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 6327841" data-attributes="member: 2067">Isn't that why the save DC for spells starts at 8 rather than 10, though? The highest DC a 1st-level character can have is 13. The highest save bonus a 1st-level character can have is +5. The lowest save bonus a 1st-level character can have is -1 (which actually mirrors the attack bonuses at 1st level). If something targets one of your two strong saves (and everyone has at least one of the &quot;important&quot; saves as a strong save), you're likely to succeed. For instance, the fireballs of the Basic wizard will typically be dodged by the strong DEX save of the Basic rogue. That sounds a bit panicky to me. I mean, your worst save is -1. You shouldn't be expecting to make that save most of the time, so upping the DC by +1-+3 isn't going to introduce anything new into your life -- you're going to fail that save with or without the boost, and spells are presumably balanced knowing that sometimes folks will fail those saves. It's OK to not save vs. a spell. Yes, your weak point will be something you don't make a lot of saves on. It's your weak save, you have a weakness. What you fear most (&quot;I need a 20 or better to save!&quot;) becomes true without magic items when the spellcaster maxes out that DC at 17th level and you fail to invest any points into your weak ability score. Add magic items and just keeps being true.And I'm totally comfortable with that being true. A 17th-level specialized mage who has jazzed up her spellcasting ability score to the limits should almost always be able to affect someone with a -1 in their targeted save. Maybe that -1 dude should think about putting some points in to their weak save.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 6327841, member: 2067"] Isn't that why the save DC for spells starts at 8 rather than 10, though? The highest DC a 1st-level character can have is 13. The highest save bonus a 1st-level character can have is +5. The lowest save bonus a 1st-level character can have is -1 (which actually mirrors the attack bonuses at 1st level). If something targets one of your two strong saves (and everyone has at least one of the "important" saves as a strong save), you're likely to succeed. For instance, the fireballs of the Basic wizard will typically be dodged by the strong DEX save of the Basic rogue. That sounds a bit panicky to me. I mean, your worst save is -1. You [B]shouldn't be expecting to make that save[/B] most of the time, so upping the DC by +1-+3 isn't going to introduce anything new into your life -- you're going to fail that save with or without the boost, and spells are presumably balanced knowing that sometimes folks will fail those saves. It's OK to not save vs. a spell. Yes, your weak point will be something you don't make a lot of saves on. It's your weak save, you have a weakness. What you fear most ("I need a 20 or better to save!") becomes true without magic items when the spellcaster maxes out that DC at 17th level and you fail to invest any points into your weak ability score. Add magic items and just keeps being true. And I'm totally comfortable with that being true. A 17th-level specialized mage who has jazzed up her spellcasting ability score to the limits should almost always be able to affect someone with a -1 in their targeted save. Maybe that -1 dude should think about [I]putting some points in to their weak save[/I]. [/QUOTE]

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