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Is the Poison Spray Cantrip any good?
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<blockquote data-quote="FreeTheSlaves" data-source="post: 8034701" data-attributes="member: 9952"><p>Well I guess we need to run some numbers to see the state of things regarding EKs and Poison Spray.</p><p></p><p>Poison Spray is a Con save, so we can assume the EK is using it against a higher AC foe they’ve fought before with a known modest Con save: the Veteran springs to mind, AC17 and Con+2. I don’t know what a typical EK looks like, so I’ll run the numbers with the stats of a known PC.</p><p></p><p>Level 10 EK versus CR3 Veteran</p><p>2x Rapier+9 d8+7 versus AC17</p><p>Poison Spray DC16 versus Con+2</p><p></p><p>Two rapier attacks</p><p>Hits on an 8+ or 65%</p><p>Average damage = d8+7 equals 11.5</p><p>5 of the 65% hit chance is a critical that averages 9+7 equals 16</p><p>So average sword DPR = 2*(0.60*11.5+(0.05*16))</p><p>Average sword DPR = 2*(6.9+0.8)</p><p> = 15.4</p><p></p><p>Let’s compare that to Poison Spray and one attack.</p><p></p><p>One Poison Spray attack</p><p>Veteran saves on 14+ or 35% (so EK succeeds 65%)</p><p>Average damage = 2d12 equals 13</p><p>So average Poison Spray DPR = 0.65*13</p><p>Average Poison Spray DPR = 8.45</p><p></p><p>If we now include one sword attack DPR of 7.7 the combined sword and Poison Spray DPR = 16.15</p><p></p><p>But this doesn’t account for Eldritch Strike imposing save disadvantage, and if so the save +2 effectively becomes Con-3.</p><p></p><p>Therefore, one Poison Spray attack at disadvantage</p><p>Veteran saves on 19+ or 10% (so EK succeeds 90%)</p><p>Average Poison Spray damage = 2d12 equals 13</p><p>So average Eldritch Strike Poison Spray DPR = 0.9*13</p><p>Average Eldritch Strike Poison Spray DPR = 11.7</p><p></p><p>However we can only say 65% of the time the Poison Spray DPR is 11.7, because 35% of the time the Poison Spray is 8.45. </p><p>So average Eldritch Strike Poison Spray & normal Poison Spray DPR = (0.65*11.7)+(0.35*8.45)</p><p>Average Eldritch Strike Poison Spray & normal Poison Spray DPR = 10.56</p><p></p><p>If we again include the sword attack DPR of 7.7 the combined average sword DPR and Eldritch Strike Poison Spray & normal Poison Spray DPR = 18.26</p><p></p><p>Two sword swipes of 15.4 versus Poison Spray and sword swipe of 18.26. Looks like Poison Spray works well with this EK at level 10 versus a high AC modest Con save foe. Doesn’t exactly blow me away as a killer combo, more like a tool in the toolbox option.</p><p></p><p>A 3rd attack versus an extra d12 likely favours the former. That said Eldritch Strike reduces the save chance to such a degree it’d likely be very minor. I suspect the level 11 Poison Spray plus sword swipe still averages higher than 3 sword swipes on this build versus this foe.</p><p></p><p>3 sword attacks = 3*7.7 </p><p> = 23.1</p><p></p><p>11th level Poison Spray = 19.5 (3d12)</p><p>65% chance of 17.55 and 35% chance 12.67. </p><p>11.41 + 4.43 = 15.84</p><p></p><p>1 Poison Spray and 1 sword swipe = 23.54 (15.84+7.7)</p><p></p><p>Wow, 23.1 versus 23.54. Certainly not overpowered.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="FreeTheSlaves, post: 8034701, member: 9952"] Well I guess we need to run some numbers to see the state of things regarding EKs and Poison Spray. Poison Spray is a Con save, so we can assume the EK is using it against a higher AC foe they’ve fought before with a known modest Con save: the Veteran springs to mind, AC17 and Con+2. I don’t know what a typical EK looks like, so I’ll run the numbers with the stats of a known PC. Level 10 EK versus CR3 Veteran 2x Rapier+9 d8+7 versus AC17 Poison Spray DC16 versus Con+2 Two rapier attacks Hits on an 8+ or 65% Average damage = d8+7 equals 11.5 5 of the 65% hit chance is a critical that averages 9+7 equals 16 So average sword DPR = 2*(0.60*11.5+(0.05*16)) Average sword DPR = 2*(6.9+0.8) = 15.4 Let’s compare that to Poison Spray and one attack. One Poison Spray attack Veteran saves on 14+ or 35% (so EK succeeds 65%) Average damage = 2d12 equals 13 So average Poison Spray DPR = 0.65*13 Average Poison Spray DPR = 8.45 If we now include one sword attack DPR of 7.7 the combined sword and Poison Spray DPR = 16.15 But this doesn’t account for Eldritch Strike imposing save disadvantage, and if so the save +2 effectively becomes Con-3. Therefore, one Poison Spray attack at disadvantage Veteran saves on 19+ or 10% (so EK succeeds 90%) Average Poison Spray damage = 2d12 equals 13 So average Eldritch Strike Poison Spray DPR = 0.9*13 Average Eldritch Strike Poison Spray DPR = 11.7 However we can only say 65% of the time the Poison Spray DPR is 11.7, because 35% of the time the Poison Spray is 8.45. So average Eldritch Strike Poison Spray & normal Poison Spray DPR = (0.65*11.7)+(0.35*8.45) Average Eldritch Strike Poison Spray & normal Poison Spray DPR = 10.56 If we again include the sword attack DPR of 7.7 the combined average sword DPR and Eldritch Strike Poison Spray & normal Poison Spray DPR = 18.26 Two sword swipes of 15.4 versus Poison Spray and sword swipe of 18.26. Looks like Poison Spray works well with this EK at level 10 versus a high AC modest Con save foe. Doesn’t exactly blow me away as a killer combo, more like a tool in the toolbox option. A 3rd attack versus an extra d12 likely favours the former. That said Eldritch Strike reduces the save chance to such a degree it’d likely be very minor. I suspect the level 11 Poison Spray plus sword swipe still averages higher than 3 sword swipes on this build versus this foe. 3 sword attacks = 3*7.7 = 23.1 11th level Poison Spray = 19.5 (3d12) 65% chance of 17.55 and 35% chance 12.67. 11.41 + 4.43 = 15.84 1 Poison Spray and 1 sword swipe = 23.54 (15.84+7.7) Wow, 23.1 versus 23.54. Certainly not overpowered. [/QUOTE]
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