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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 2719051" data-attributes="member: 2011">Yes. One is mostly annoying, somewhat dangerous, and not too hard to bypass for prepared characters. The other is immobilizing with no saving throw. Hence, the reason for the level difference.Yup. It means that the spell is not worthless. Fourth level spells shouldn't be worthless.PS. You forgot about Rogues with Escape Artist. Most of them would have a fair chance of getting out as well. Raging Barbarians. Actually, any of the combatant types. Wild Shaping Druids. Dimension Dooring Wizards, Sorcerers, and Psions. Most large monsters.Only Clerics, Bards, smaller monsters, unprepared arcane spell casters, and possibly Monks would have real serious problems with this.And how is this different than Web or Entangle? Look at the area effect of Entangle. 40 foot radius. If you are near the middle of it, it does not matter that you made your Reflex save. You will not be getting out of it within a single round unless your Speed is high. That means, even if you make your saving throw, most characters will have to make a second saving throw minimally before getting out. And, most classes do not have good Reflex saves.Look at Web. It is really difficult to get out of it (shy of setting it on fire and even that takes several rounds at 5 foot per round), even though it has a 20 foot radius.When I discuss these types of things with you, it appears that you do not look at the big picture. You focus on some singular aspect of a spell and say it is too powerful because of that one aspect. You do not focus on the other aspects.Evard's is fourth level. It SHOULD be more difficult to get out of than either Web or Entangle.I disagree.Compare Evard's to Solid Fog. Same level spells.Solid Fog is in many ways worse than Evard's in many circumstances. Only the Dimension Door and Freedom of Movement characters can get out of it quickly. Everyone else is stuck for many rounds.Sure, Gust of Wind will negate it. How many characters walk around with Gust of Wind in their pocket? Well, maybe a Wizard or two with a scroll. Hardly anyone else. No Wizard in the party, you are probably in deep trouble shy of a successful Dispel Magic.So, while some characters get out of Evard's and some are stuck, very few characters get out of Solid Fog quickly without the appropriate magic and the enemy spellcaster just lays down round after round of area affect spells.But, Solid Fog, like Evard's, will not be used just against spellcasting capable characters. Solid Fog is a LOT more useful against big monsters than Evard's. Pros and Cons. Everything is dependent on the situation.Or, compare Evard's to Resiliant Sphere. Many opponents versus one. But if he fails his save (and all of the core characters but a Bard, Rogue, Ranger, or Monk have a good chance of that occurring), he is out of the battle shy of Dispel Magic or Dimension Door.You see a Cleric, Resiliant Sphere him and if successful, you have seriously hampered his group unless someone still has a Dispel Magic handy (assuming the Dispel Magic works). Minimally, it will use up a valuable Dispel Magic for a single spell.And, Resiliant Sphere works great against many monsters that would break right out of an Evard's. Many monsters have poor Reflex saves and most monsters have no way out of a sphere.Pros and Cons.Like I said, you do not appear to look at the big picture when you do comparisons. Here are two hampering same level spells which have a lot more utility and power depending on circumstances.You dismised them outright as not as strong without considering their uses.True. But unlike Sleep, almost all Psionic powers are augmentable. So, they do not become less useful within a few levels.Interesting that. Pros and Cons.Spells often lose utility as you get higher level. They have damage caps. They have a similar DC as to when they were cast at lower level unless Heightened. They take up lower level slots at high level, but often aren't very useful. Cure Light Wounds at 18th level. It's only useful for stabilizing and possibly making a character conscious. It is not very useful for curing damage anymore.Psionic powers typically do not have these issues. Hence, one important reason Psionics are more potent: Utility, even at higher levels. Plus, PP are not often wasted on lower level powers that are not very useful like slots are wasted on lower level spells that are not very useful.But, the "pro-Psionics are balanced" people forget about the very low utility low level spells that are not very useful in a high level game.Evard's Black Tentacles at 15th level with a 23 grapple against a Huge Dragon? That's a joke.Empathic Feedback also 4th level? That still can do damage when augmented at 15 level (and lasting 2.5 hours) against many opponents, even Huge Dragons. No save. No spell resistance.Or Intellect Fortress? That still halves the damage from the Huge Dragon's breath weapon, even NOT augmented at 15th level.You are the one indicating that certain spells are too powerful. Not me.You are the one with the strawman which you seem to have difficulty supporting.Sure, Evard's can be devastating in the right circumstances. So can Entangle. You've just illlustrated that a fourth level spell in the right circumstances can be a little more potent than a first level spell.</blockquote>

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