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General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Is the Psion class balanced?
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<blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 2723402" data-attributes="member: 2011"><p>I implied no such thing and I stated no such thing. You are reading things into this and making assumptions, just to support your point of view.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It's a public bathhouse. If someone heard a noise and walked in, or someone just happened to walk in (an employee for example), it might be easier if the body is hidden. Maybe not. Not every Assassin has an Int of 20 and picks a brilliant action every round.</p><p></p><p>But, it is totally reasonable for an Assassin to hide a paralyzed body. It is not reasonable to you because it blows apart your assumptions.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It doesn't make sense to you because you know of the Psion's abilities.</p><p></p><p>I doubt the Assassin knew much of my abilities. She probably thought I was a Wizard or Sorcerer. Possibly a Fighter/Wizard due to my Greatsword. Maybe she put me in the water to not only drown me, but to ensure that if the poison wore off, I could not cast spells with verbal components. A Wizard might have a contingency spell to get rid of poison.</p><p></p><p>We were in a city fighting demons in the sewers. While at it, we messed up the plans of the local thieves guild. Since my PC always attempted to hide her display (since it's a free action to do so), I doubt many if any people in the city knew of her powers. I suspect the Assassin was sent to kill the party, not to kill my PC specifically.</p><p></p><p>And again, maybe the Assassin was cruelly evil and wanted the PC to die a slow horrible death.</p><p></p><p>But, metagaming thinking does not support roleplaying, hence, the reason you dismiss this so lightly.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It is metagaming thinking for NPCs to always know the abillites of the PCs. In that entire campaign, there were only 4 Psions ever (tmk, the DM could have had some hiding around). The two PCs and the two allied NPCs. There were a few psionic monsters to fight every once in a while.</p><p></p><p>Most NPCs should know very little of psionics in a psionics is rare campaign.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Do you have rules to back this up?</p><p></p><p>You threaten the squares around you. If certain actions occur in those squares, you get an AoO. Nothing in the rules, TMK, indicates that you have to be aware of the target being there or of the target performing the action.</p><p></p><p>If the former were true, you could not AoO an invisible Wizard who is not using components.</p><p></p><p>If the latter were true, then the Psion could manifest while paralyzed at will because her opponent would not know she is manifesting until after the fact and would get no AoO.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And yet again you imply that the DM did not handle it properly, based yet again on assumptions and supposition.</p><p></p><p>Not only that, you've only made two points here:</p><p></p><p>1) The DM might have allowed an immediate action during a surprise round.</p><p>2) The DM might have allowed manifest defensively while the PC was paralyzed.</p><p></p><p>If the former is true, it's a valid point. The psion would have had slightly more power than she should have. But, surprise rounds are a very small part of combat and you don't always get attacked in them (sometimes, the bad guys move to position or attack someone else in the group or something). It is not the reason this particular psion was so successful. She was so successful because psionic Elans (i.e. ones with more than 2 PP) are broken.</p><p></p><p>If the latter is true, it's mostly irrelevant since the Psion was paralyzed in one encounter out of about 60 encounters in this campaign (8+ months, 1-3 encounters per 7 hour session per week).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, you assume. Your entire argument is based off assumptions.</p><p></p><p>I've DM and played for nearly 30 years. I would know if the DM was making it easy for us. And in fact, this DM has challenged us more than any DM I've ever played under because he is one of those people who is constantly reading Dragon magazine, surfing the forums for good ideas, etc. It was a real joy to experience some of the twisted ideas that came at us.</p><p></p><p>I'd also put my experience up against your assumptions when it comes to a balance discussion any day of the week.</p><p></p><p>+8 to defeat Power Resistance in a game where magic and psionics are the same is ludicrous when it comes to balance.</p><p></p><p>Sure, you have to expend your focus. Big deal. That's easy enough to get back, even within the same combat.</p><p></p><p>The argument that you have to use up your psionic focus to do some particular psionic activity, hence you are really limited, is a really weak argument once you get out of low levels. At mid to high levels, you can do these types of activities practically at will.</p><p></p><p>Pro-psionic people are unwilling to admit that some of psionics is balanced, but some of it is very much not balanced.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If the DM is having to go out of his way to challenge one PC class over all of the other PC classes, then you have a balance issue.</p><p></p><p>That's the entire point of this discussion.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="KarinsDad, post: 2723402, member: 2011"] I implied no such thing and I stated no such thing. You are reading things into this and making assumptions, just to support your point of view. It's a public bathhouse. If someone heard a noise and walked in, or someone just happened to walk in (an employee for example), it might be easier if the body is hidden. Maybe not. Not every Assassin has an Int of 20 and picks a brilliant action every round. But, it is totally reasonable for an Assassin to hide a paralyzed body. It is not reasonable to you because it blows apart your assumptions. It doesn't make sense to you because you know of the Psion's abilities. I doubt the Assassin knew much of my abilities. She probably thought I was a Wizard or Sorcerer. Possibly a Fighter/Wizard due to my Greatsword. Maybe she put me in the water to not only drown me, but to ensure that if the poison wore off, I could not cast spells with verbal components. A Wizard might have a contingency spell to get rid of poison. We were in a city fighting demons in the sewers. While at it, we messed up the plans of the local thieves guild. Since my PC always attempted to hide her display (since it's a free action to do so), I doubt many if any people in the city knew of her powers. I suspect the Assassin was sent to kill the party, not to kill my PC specifically. And again, maybe the Assassin was cruelly evil and wanted the PC to die a slow horrible death. But, metagaming thinking does not support roleplaying, hence, the reason you dismiss this so lightly. It is metagaming thinking for NPCs to always know the abillites of the PCs. In that entire campaign, there were only 4 Psions ever (tmk, the DM could have had some hiding around). The two PCs and the two allied NPCs. There were a few psionic monsters to fight every once in a while. Most NPCs should know very little of psionics in a psionics is rare campaign. Do you have rules to back this up? You threaten the squares around you. If certain actions occur in those squares, you get an AoO. Nothing in the rules, TMK, indicates that you have to be aware of the target being there or of the target performing the action. If the former were true, you could not AoO an invisible Wizard who is not using components. If the latter were true, then the Psion could manifest while paralyzed at will because her opponent would not know she is manifesting until after the fact and would get no AoO. And yet again you imply that the DM did not handle it properly, based yet again on assumptions and supposition. Not only that, you've only made two points here: 1) The DM might have allowed an immediate action during a surprise round. 2) The DM might have allowed manifest defensively while the PC was paralyzed. If the former is true, it's a valid point. The psion would have had slightly more power than she should have. But, surprise rounds are a very small part of combat and you don't always get attacked in them (sometimes, the bad guys move to position or attack someone else in the group or something). It is not the reason this particular psion was so successful. She was so successful because psionic Elans (i.e. ones with more than 2 PP) are broken. If the latter is true, it's mostly irrelevant since the Psion was paralyzed in one encounter out of about 60 encounters in this campaign (8+ months, 1-3 encounters per 7 hour session per week). Again, you assume. Your entire argument is based off assumptions. I've DM and played for nearly 30 years. I would know if the DM was making it easy for us. And in fact, this DM has challenged us more than any DM I've ever played under because he is one of those people who is constantly reading Dragon magazine, surfing the forums for good ideas, etc. It was a real joy to experience some of the twisted ideas that came at us. I'd also put my experience up against your assumptions when it comes to a balance discussion any day of the week. +8 to defeat Power Resistance in a game where magic and psionics are the same is ludicrous when it comes to balance. Sure, you have to expend your focus. Big deal. That's easy enough to get back, even within the same combat. The argument that you have to use up your psionic focus to do some particular psionic activity, hence you are really limited, is a really weak argument once you get out of low levels. At mid to high levels, you can do these types of activities practically at will. Pro-psionic people are unwilling to admit that some of psionics is balanced, but some of it is very much not balanced. If the DM is having to go out of his way to challenge one PC class over all of the other PC classes, then you have a balance issue. That's the entire point of this discussion. [/QUOTE]
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