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Message: <blockquote data-quote="3catcircus" data-source="post: 1891238" data-attributes="member: 16077">Rules Complexity is Killing the GameI'll preface by stating that my own biases are that I've played D&D/AD&D since the early '80s including the boxed BECMI sets and 1st/2nd edition AD&D.  Additionally, I am concentrating on 3.x and WOTC because the other RPGs I play are either out of print (Twilight:2000, TORG, Lords of Creation, ) or were/are produced and edited adequately to begin with (Harn, Call of Cthulhu.)I think that the unified mechanic of 3.x was, in theory, a step in the right direction for D&D.  That having been said, the fact of the matter is that rules complexity (actually, it isn't even "complexity" alone, but the plethora of rules additions) is killing D&D for me.  I know it is for everyone else I game with too.  The biggest problem is the feats and prestige classes.While people may aregue that it is only 3rd parties that took the ideas of feats and prestige classes and created a mess with a morass of poor-quality supplements, WOTC has not done its part as steward of D&D to reign in this tendency to make things "Bigger! Stronger! Faster!"  EVERY supplement or book that WOTC has produced for the game has included too many new prestige classes and feats, too many impossible-to-use-with-no-historical-basis-but-looks-cool weapons and armor, too many 1000-variations-on-just-50-monsters-and-calling-it-a-book-with-over-300-monsters. As far as I am concerned, other than the core books, new crunch has been introduced with too little thought and too little playtest.  In many cases these feats and prestige classes are done *only* to counter the ones introduced in the last supplement that was published (and thus stimulate sales of product.)  In many cases these contradict each other, overlap each other, and contradict the core rules.  Do we really *need* to have a published feat to be able to do something that in previous incarnations of the game was the province of DM judgement?  Do we really need a prestige class to define what was once the province of player imagination?  I'd prefer that WOTC stop rushing half-complete, poorly-edited books out the door.  Concentrate on two things:  doing the research to ensure the product doesn't contradict prior work (in both the crunch and fluff areas), and making damn sure that the product is as well-edited as possible.  Frankly, most of WOTC's offerings of late were released in such a poor state that the editors should have hidden their heads in shame.  The other side of this is that a lot of the newest offering (Complete xxx) aren't "new."  They are simply repackaging of the splat books - sure - in some cases a name has changed or a prestige class progression was tweaked, but the material isn't new - which is even more of a reason that the products should have been in a better state of editing prior to release.While I've harped on feats and prestige classes, 3.x, in general, is nothing but a headache for DMs.  Previously, we didn't have to worry about creating full statistics for each and every orc the party encountered.  If we wanted a BBEG orc, we simply gave him an additional attack or more hit points.  Now, we need to know his SSN and his mother's maiden name in order to stat him out.Looking at an old "classic" AD&D module (A-1) the two main baddies of the temple were a 5th level Thief and a 6th level Cleric.  The Thief was described as such:  (Name) (level and class): AC, hp, # of attacks, Damage (by weapon type), backstab for triple damage, Equipment: (armor, sword, sling, magic ring, magic potion).The cleric was described similarly, with the exception of the addition of her spells (a grand total of 10 spells listed just by name).When I converted one of these to 3.5 (I'll use the thief), here is how much space the stat block takes up:"(Name),Medium-size Male Human Rogue5Hit Dice:  (5d6)+5  Hit Points:  26  Initiative:  +7  Speed:  Walk 30'  AC:  17  Attacks:  Sling +6; *Sword, Short +6;  Damage:  Sling 1d4+1; *Sword, Short 1d6+1;  Face/Reach:  /5  Special Qualities:  Evasion (Ex), Sneak Attack +3d6, Trap Sense (Ex) +1, Trapfinding, Uncanny Dodge (Dex bonus to AC)  Saves:  Fortitude: +2, Reflex: +9, Will: +2  Abilities:  Str 13 (+1), Dex 17 (+3), Con 13 (+1), Int 13 (+1), Wis 13 (+1), Cha 13 (+1) Skills:  Appraise 5; Balance 7; Bluff 5; Climb 5; Concentration 1; Craft (Untrained) 1; Decipher Script 5; Diplomacy 5; Disable Device 3; Disguise 3; Escape Artist 5; Forgery 3; Gather Information 5; Heal 1; Hide 7; Intimidate 5; Jump 5; Listen 5; Move Silently 7; Open Lock 5; Ride -2; Search 5; Sense Motive 5; Sleight of Hand 7; Spot 5; Survival 1; Swim 1; Use Magic Device 3;  Feats:  Armor Proficiency (Light), Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Simple Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Finesse  Challenge Rating:  5  Alignment:  Neutral Evil  Possessions: Leather; Outfit (Explorer's); Potion of Invisibility; Ring of Protection +2; Sling;"Now - just imagine doing this amount of work for *every* single NPC that isn't straight out of one of the monster manuals?  Imagine doing this *from scratch* (i.e. generating it rather than converting from an existing set of stats from a previous edition of the game.)AD&D beats 3.5 in this *because* of the use of the THAC0 tables (and all of the other tables) - all of which were fairly logically laid out on the DM screen.  I didn't have to waste my time assigning skill ranks to a rogue's skills because the little table told me what they were.  I didn't have to waste time deciding what feats to give him because, as DM, I could simply determine if the situation logically would allow for him to do the same things feats allow him to do in 3.x.I ran my group (consisting of 5 PCs, 2 NPCs and 2 cohorts) through portions of A1-4 last night, using the 3.5 rules.  When the party fought the rogue with his 5 weasels and 8 orcs, it took about an hour and a half to go through 7 rounds of combat.  When I ran this same combat in it's existing form (AD&D) against a party of 8 PCs it took about 10 minutes.Enough with the publishing of unoriginal material that hasn't been given enough time and respect to be properly edited!What I believe WOTC needs is to STOP releasing books until they can get their development and editing acts together.</blockquote>

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