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<blockquote data-quote="mmadsen" data-source="post: 91072" data-attributes="member: 1645">Let's follow this through then.&nbsp; If we start with the Shaman but give it Wizard BAB, HD, Saves, and Skills, we've got something that fits the archetype we want, but it &quot;gets the shaft&quot;.&nbsp; What could we add in place of the third-rate monk abilities and second-rate undead turning?How is Weapon Bless not useful for plundering dragon hoards and dealing with demons?&nbsp; Commune with Lesser Spirit for gathering intelligence?&nbsp; Enthrall for staring down a horde of orcs?If the Shaman's spells are useless in a proposed &quot;low magic&quot; campaign, they must be useless in Oriental Adventures too (since they're not all spells like Dispell Magic and Remove Curse that require magic to operate against).&nbsp; Is that the case?Isn't that currently the case?So teamwork is a big negative for you?&nbsp; One of the big plusses of a class system is that each character naturally fills a separate niche.&nbsp; The Fighter kills things, the Rogue picks locks and disarms traps, etc.&nbsp; I don't see what's wrong with a Wizard whose strength isn't killing things (directly) and picking locks, but who helps the party in other ways.&nbsp; Should the Fighter complain that he can't kill any monsters without a Rogue to pick locks and disarm traps for him?&nbsp; Is the Fighter useless?Is there anything besides straight fighting ability that would change this?&nbsp; The current Shaman has Monk-like abilities.&nbsp; Would a Rogue's Sneak Attack work?&nbsp; Or a 0-level spell that Enthralled a single attacker?&nbsp; Ideas?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="mmadsen, post: 91072, member: 1645"] Let's follow this through then. If we start with the Shaman but give it Wizard BAB, HD, Saves, and Skills, we've got something that fits the archetype we want, but it "gets the shaft". What could we add in place of the third-rate monk abilities and second-rate undead turning? How is Weapon Bless not useful for plundering dragon hoards and dealing with demons? Commune with Lesser Spirit for gathering intelligence? Enthrall for staring down a horde of orcs? If the Shaman's spells are useless in a proposed "low magic" campaign, they must be useless in Oriental Adventures too (since they're not all spells like Dispell Magic and Remove Curse that require magic to operate against). Is that the case? Isn't that currently the case? So teamwork is a big negative for you? One of the big plusses of a class system is that each character naturally fills a separate niche. The Fighter kills things, the Rogue picks locks and disarms traps, etc. I don't see what's wrong with a Wizard whose strength isn't killing things (directly) and picking locks, but who helps the party in other ways. Should the Fighter complain that he can't kill any monsters without a Rogue to pick locks and disarm traps for him? Is the Fighter useless? Is there anything besides straight fighting ability that would change this? The current Shaman has Monk-like abilities. Would a Rogue's Sneak Attack work? Or a 0-level spell that Enthralled a single attacker? Ideas? [/QUOTE]

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