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<blockquote data-quote="mmadsen" data-source="post: 91262" data-attributes="member: 1645">To clarify, while discussing subtle magic as an alternative to flash-bang magic, I suggested giving wizards a spell list full of subtle spells, particularly at the lower levels, and flash-bang spells only at higher levels.&nbsp; Someone else suggested the OA Shaman as a class with just such a subtle spell list.&nbsp; Many people met my suggestion of a subtle spell list with disdain.&nbsp; What's the point of being a wizard if you don't toss fireballs around?&nbsp; Naturally then, I had to ask, is the Shaman that awful?Of course there are non-spellcasting differences, but I must admit that I don't see the great advantage of some third-rate Monk abilities (e.g. Improved Unarmed Strike) for a spellcasting class.&nbsp; You say that, &quot;The Shaman actually has the capacity to get things accomplished in a non-magical fashion,&quot; but I don't see what he's going to get done with his fists (+0/1d6) that a Wizard won't do with his staff (+0/1d6).&nbsp; Survivability's always an issue with low-level Wizards, so the d4 vs. d6 hit dice can become an issue, and no armor vs. light armor can also become an issue, but that seems like something we can work around (a wound/vitality system goes a long way at low levels).It sounds to me more like a Shaman who uses a staff and is too fragile for hand-to-hand combat.&nbsp; I'm interested in any suggestions for fitting abilities that would keep such a character alive and interesting.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="mmadsen, post: 91262, member: 1645"] To clarify, while discussing subtle magic as an alternative to flash-bang magic, I suggested giving wizards a spell list full of subtle spells, particularly at the lower levels, and flash-bang spells only at higher levels. Someone else suggested the OA Shaman as a class with just such a subtle spell list. Many people met my suggestion of a subtle spell list with disdain. What's the point of being a wizard if you don't toss fireballs around? Naturally then, I had to ask, is the Shaman that awful? Of course there are non-spellcasting differences, but I must admit that I don't see the great advantage of some third-rate Monk abilities (e.g. Improved Unarmed Strike) for a spellcasting class. You say that, "The Shaman actually has the capacity to get things accomplished in a non-magical fashion," but I don't see what he's going to get done with his fists (+0/1d6) that a Wizard won't do with his staff (+0/1d6). Survivability's always an issue with low-level Wizards, so the d4 vs. d6 hit dice can become an issue, and no armor vs. light armor can also become an issue, but that seems like something we can work around (a wound/vitality system goes a long way at low levels). It sounds to me more like a Shaman who uses a staff and is too fragile for hand-to-hand combat. I'm interested in any suggestions for fitting abilities that would keep such a character alive and interesting. [/QUOTE]

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