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Message: <blockquote data-quote="kenjib" data-source="post: 91894" data-attributes="member: 530">To be honest I don't see how any of this post is relevant to what I've said.I never said anywhere that killing monsters (assuming that by "monsters" you include beings such as Morgan Le Fay and Mordred) is not an important part of the adventure.  In fact, I said quite clearly that the non-wizard PCs gain glory by doing things precisely like this.  In myth, killing the monster is _a_ focal point of the story, you are right, but it is not the primary one.  The primary focal point of the story is the journey.  Killing the monster is a subset of the entire journey.  The facilitator has skills and abilities to help with the journey.I said quite explicitly multiple times that this does not work with heavy handed DM's.  It is more of a collaborative process.  It's not even anything new.  You could do this with the current rules using the bard class just fine solely with knowledge skills, divinations, and bardic lore.  In fact, that is precisely why those skills exist.  They are there for the DM to feed information to the character that fuels the plot.  This does not diminish the roles of other characters, who still each have a chance to shine in different areas, including combat.I never stated anywhere that a character would do this, nor did I even imply it.  You are either either misrepresenting me or entirely fail to understand what I was getting at.I never said that this character wields any godlike power or is at all unbalanced relative to other party members.  Again you are either misrepresenting me or entirely fail to understand what I was getting at.This topic is a derailment of mmadsen's thread and I won't discuss it further, but I just wanted to point out that you seem to be constructing some alternate argument that is not mine, and then you are proceding to argue against it as if it were mine.  If you really want to discuss it further you can start a new thread, and I'll continue to debate the issue with you there but I don't see how such a discussion would be fruitful.  I definitely won't continue the discussion here though, as it has gone off topic.Now, regarding whether or not you can make the shaman spell list compatible with the wizard class, my answer would be of course!  Getting things like this to work well is a matter of tweaking the details correctly so that things work out the way you want and the results are fun.  It's not a question of "can it be done?" so much as it's a question of "how do we do it?"At the extreme example take a wizard, give him the shaman spell list, give him the shaman BaB, give him the shaman light armor, etc. until we just have a shaman.  Do you see what I'm getting at?  It's a continuum and the trick is just finding the right place to break off and then the right supplemental abilities to add to make the class balanced and fun to play.  This is the hard part of course, but simply arguing that it can't be done is not productive at all in my opinion.  It's all in the details.  Starting with the base wizard with shaman spell lists I'll toss out some suggestions that may or may not be useful.  I'm not recommending that all of these be applied at once, but rather suggesting several simple ideas (most already suggested) that can be picked among.  In addition, some of these might not fit your vision of this caster:1.  Give him bardic lore.2.  Remove arcane spell failure.3.  Give him good fortitude as well as will saves as a representation of an otherworldy/mystical resistance to harm similar to the monk's.4.  Give him more a faster bonus metamagic feat progression.5.  Tweak the spell list a little to add a tiny bit more oomph and make him more exciting to play.  Just add a few select spells to fill some gaps here and there.6.  Increase hit points per level to d6.7.  Increase skill points.8.  Create entirely new abilities and/or spells, like the ability to call upon the power and wisdom of his ancestor's spirits, or the ability to steal luck from other people, or a special affinity for invoking natural disasters and calamities, or the ability to call upon animal spirits for special abilities.With a wide range of options, it doesn't seem reasonable to me to simply state that such a thing will inevitably turn out bad.  It's a matter of pushing the right buttons until it works.</blockquote>

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