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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Petrosian" data-source="post: 129004" data-attributes="member: 1149">[/B]</blockquote>No you didn't, i just had no reason to believe that in your campaign or in your balance considerations the notion of a sorter duration version and a longer duration at higher level would be an automatic no-no. I have no idea as to why this would be the case, but if for you it is to be presumed, that says more about your balancing logic.Usually by round 1 or 2 of serious battles in my games the enemy has seen magic at use and is considering dispels if he has a chance. Since its COMMON for magically powerful adversaries to use buffing spells, my int 20 wizards don't have to wait and SEE for themselves that the mage is casting buffs or that the fighter is bull strengthed or that those blinding fast bonuses to Ac from haste are not a natural thing <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":-)" title="Smile    :-)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":-)" /> to start throwing dispels. After all, if they equip their guys with these toys... why would they have to see them being cast to consider the possibility that maybe somehow someone else in the cosmos has figured it out too?YMMV.Again, there are typically tactical options but in most serious fights there is something being fought over. of course if the other option is certain death, they will flee... but if the other option is certain death, coming back a minute later because the clerics has now lost his faux-keenness is a little silly.snip the even more "how you post" stuff... Ok we will try again... Apples are not oranges.oranges are not apples.Some creatures are vulnerable to a fireball, some are immune. Thats a built in nature of ENERGY attacks in the system.IF the caster got to choose which opponents he faced. IF the caster got to choose to have all his enemies be fire vulnerable. IF those issues were in his control 99% of the time, then YES fireball would be balanced using the damage it does 99% of the time. it would be silly to balance it against the damage it did 1% of the time, right?The spell we were discussing is not relying on any special vulnerabilities outside of his control. Its not relying on random weapon allotment. The same guy who throws the spell will CHOOSE which weapons he uses while it is up.Read the last two paragraphs again. Got it? OK.So the thing your argument fails to even consider is the frequency with which the given levels of effect will occur. Unless the caster is stupid he will be castiung the spell at times when he is using weapons that it does good for the vast majority of the time. Therefore, that is the proper case to consider for the bulk of the balancing. (Unlike with fireball where its not his choice as often as not.)That you missed that distinction entirely says a lot about your ability to analyze for balances.Uhh... but wait... i thought you were already accounting duration in lowering the spell level. Now you also want to assess duration against the magnitude too?There are at least two distinct things at work... MAGNITUDE... how big the bang is ... and DURATION...how long you enjoy the benefits.I kept them distinct, giving the nod to duration being an edge to keen.. you seem to want to count duration again and again until you get the spell down far enough.No one is dispouting the notion that duration favors keen. You have a spell with REDUCED DURATION and INCREASED magnitude... More powerful in EFFECT, in MAGNITUDE, not in duration. i never disputed duration favoring KEEN.And i am not arguing that overall, all things considered the spell is MORE powerful a spell, i am actually arguing it is the same. You are arguing it is weaker.Or in situations where they are fighting FEW MAJOR battles and several lighter ones in a given run. Like say a typical raid where you encounter sentries and guards with some degree of surprise and such and eventually run into organized opposition.Now i must admit i am wrong... the following numbers go for comparison of KEEN vs MUNCHKIN SENSES for a variety of weapons representing a variety of weapons over a variety of ranges and multipliers"MACE (20/x2) KEEN+5% MS+15%BattleAXE (20/x3) KEEN+10% MS+20%LONGSWORD (19-20/x2) KEEN+10% MS+20%RAPIER (18-20/x2) KEEN+15% MS+20%SCYTHE (20/x4) KEEN+15% MS+20%Example of math to show results.LONGSWORD KEEN adds 2 in 20 chances of +100% to damage over normal for a net +10%.Longsword Munchkin Senses adds 1 chance in 20 for +200% damage for +10% AND increases damage on already existing 2 in 20  critical chances by an additional 100% for another +10% adding up to a net +20%. (The improvement on already existing threat range damage was where i erred before.)So, in fact, the magnitude of the effect for Munchkin Senses is greater for a wide variety of weapons, including those often sought by those "wanting criticals" and those normally available to the cleric. its just MORE. That pretty much reduces the fireball vs dragon attempt you made above to only an example of your "analytical strengths"So in short, even if one accepts that having the SAME EFFECT but only for rounds vs hours is indeed ONE SPELL LEVEL DOWN, you then run headlong with this one into it being rounds vs hours BUT MORE EFFECT during that period.Maybe you can ignore this, since apparently in your games player choose their enemies as easily as they choose their weapons, but others might not.So eben if you[/QUOTE]

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