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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Felix" data-source="post: 4096873" data-attributes="member: 3929">I would count those construct HD against all the other benefits I asked you about. I still don't know if they have SR, DR, and other immunities.It certainly isn't +0 LA. Closer to +1, surely. What detriments do you weigh against reach (which factors into your chain-wielding tripmonkey)? -1 AC and Attack? When making a melee build, would you not gladly trade -1 AC and Attack for reach? Should a class ability that is immensely helpful to melee types not be charged +1 LA because it is a hindrance to spellcasters and rogues?Then how does granting Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Combat Reflexes to take advantage of the Chain's abilities not change the CR of the Maug? Why would that not increase its CR? What abilities do you think they look at when they calculate CR?But you see how the challenge presented by the encounter is fluid, and not merely fixed by the CR of the opponent.Relative to melee attacks, yes. For the same reason the Terrasque is more vulnerable to ranged attacks. It's not an insta-kill, but I'd rather fight that thing from a distance. If you change the nature of the encounter, you change the difficulty. You changed your Maug, so why not adjust the EL accordingly?So you don't have a problem with allowing the environment in which the PCs fight to affect the EL of the encounter. Why would changing the build of a monster as written not have a similar effect when the CR is calculated based on the monster as written?Ok. Was it not a fair question, though?Fair to say. But if you are only able to do such a heroic thing by the combination of Strength, Feats, Items, and Buffs together, how does this make the Spiked Chain necessarily cheese?Attacking at both normal and reach distance costs either a feat or a -4 nonproficiency penalty. Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain, 1.And if you want to take advantage of the AoOs, that costs a feat. Combat Reflexes, 2.Weapon Finesse costs a feat. Weapon Finesse, 3.Two-handed power attack costs a feat. Power Attack, 4.Tripping is free, unless you want to be good at it, in which case it costs two feats. Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, 5 & 6aDisarming is free, unless you want to be good at it, in which case it costs two feats. Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, 5 & 6bIf you want to both Trip and Disarm, you get a discount and that's only 3 feats. Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, 5, 6 & 7.Optimization by way of more feats? Perhaps you mean Power Attack and a high Strength? In which case the ability to Finesse the thing counts for nothing.It doesn't have to balance out all those things. The options available for the Spiked Chain wielder are legion, but that does not mean that each option does not carry an associated cost; Fighter will be the only class that will make all of those options available. To effectively use Trip and Disarm, you need INT 13, which honestly is a common dump stat for fighters. It means his WIS will likely not be as high, so he won't be able to bolster his weak Will save.To make best use of the weapon's reach, Combat Reflexes need be augmented by a high DEX. This will aid his Reflex save, Initiative, and AC; but fighters often do not need a high DEX because of their ability to wear heavy armors, and this also affords the fighter the ability to put that high stat in Con or Wis.Power Attacking two-handed is nice, but when he does so with a spiked chain, he will crit half as often with smaller dice. This will be mitigated somewhat if he makes a few more attacks because of reach relative to a greatsword, but not so much relative to a glaive.A fighter with a greatsword who does not spend feats on EWP, Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip can better afford Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Improved Critical. Were they to both Power Attack, the greatsword will more likely hit (or hit harder): [+1 attack or +2 damage from another point of BAB via Weapon Focus]; will hit harder (+2 damage via Weapon Specialization); and will crit ~4 times as often. He'll also be ready to pick up the Improved versions of WF and WS.Your 10th level Maug Fighter 5 Spiked Chain Tripper will have 6d10+10 HP (avg 43hp). A 10th level Fireball does 35 points of damage on a failed save. And your base saves are Fort +4, Ref +1, Will +1. There are ways of protecting yourself from this common 3rd level spell, but the party will have to spend resources in doing so. Hardly any cheese there. Unless it's a Oscar Mayer Cheese-filled Glass Cannon.Compared to Two Weapon Fighting, a Power Attacking Greatsword looks like cheese. I don't see how this should reflect poorly on the Spiked Chain.-----------------Simpler question:How is your ECL 10 Maug tripmonkey significantly less cheesy (not that I think it is, but you do) when equipped with a Guisarme and corresponding feats as opposed to a Spiked Chain?</blockquote>

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