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<blockquote data-quote="Stalker0" data-source="post: 4846901" data-attributes="member: 5889">For Battlerager's vigor and minions....just never attack with the minions. Instead use aid another to allow your big guys to bring more pain.With that said, you always have to be careful of the argument &quot;that ability is not broken is the DM just modifies his encounter in X way&quot;.One of the things the 4e designers highlighted is that they reduced true immunities in the game because it was too commonly forcing people to change tactics in order to be effective (such as rogue's against sneak attack immune creatures).That argument is a valid one in my opinion...while its good to force players to give up their favorite toys once in a while and think of something else, you can't use that too often.In my opinion, Battlerager's can greatly invalidate melee combat from monsters with very little cost (-1 to attacks, I don't even care about the damage part). As others have mentioned, a DM always has to put in ranged attack options just to challenge them.If a DM is forced to invalidate certain tactics all the time because of a single ability, then I think there is a problem with that ability.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Stalker0, post: 4846901, member: 5889"] For Battlerager's vigor and minions....just never attack with the minions. Instead use aid another to allow your big guys to bring more pain. With that said, you always have to be careful of the argument "that ability is not broken is the DM just modifies his encounter in X way". One of the things the 4e designers highlighted is that they reduced true immunities in the game because it was too commonly forcing people to change tactics in order to be effective (such as rogue's against sneak attack immune creatures). That argument is a valid one in my opinion...while its good to force players to give up their favorite toys once in a while and think of something else, you can't use that too often. In my opinion, Battlerager's can greatly invalidate melee combat from monsters with very little cost (-1 to attacks, I don't even care about the damage part). As others have mentioned, a DM always has to put in ranged attack options just to challenge them. If a DM is forced to invalidate certain tactics all the time because of a single ability, then I think there is a problem with that ability. [/QUOTE]

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