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Is there a general theory of party construction?
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<blockquote data-quote="Bacon Bits" data-source="post: 8546511" data-attributes="member: 6777737"><p>Yeah, but the game was balanced around it happening. It was designed with the knowledge in mind from the initial release of the game that there would be effects that trigger attacks. And there were <em>many</em> effects in 4e that would trigger bonus basic attacks, especially for Leaders and sometimes for Controllers. It wasn't a unique or uncommon ability. The only thing unique to Warlord was that it was an at-will and could be a build-around. In 5e, about the only way to accomplish this is with Battle Master or Haste, a 3rd level single target concentration spell that doesn't amplify Extra Attack or Sneak Attack (though it does work with Smite, but that's mainly Smite being broken).</p><p></p><p>Additionally, 4e Commander's Strike only granted a <em>melee</em> basic attack, and the warlord himself had to be in melee range of the target, too. A sorcerer or warlock would probably not be able to capitalize on it. It was also the reason basically every Lazylord used a longspear. There were many party compositions where you could be limited to enhancing a defender, or forced into doing your own thing entirely (not that that was a big deal; you still had encounter powers).</p><p></p><p>Furthermore, those 4e striker abilities are often weaker than their 5e equivalent. Sneak attack for example is, if anything, a little bit harder to trigger in 4e (combat advantage vs advantage or an ally adjacent), and you also do <em>much</em> less damage. 2d6 up to level 10, 3d6 level 11 to 20, and 5d6 at 21 and up. In 5e you do 2d6 at level 3, 3d6 at level 5, and 5d6 at level 9. And everyone had a ~10 point HP bonus at level 1 in 4e, too, so it doesn't really start out better. Sneak attack is just less potent.</p><p></p><p>I'll be honest, I don't have as clear a memory of Barbarian, but I vaguely recall the rages themselves being somewhat self-limiting or otherwise only being modest bonuses (add attribute bonus as bonus damage in some circumstances, or only firing at the start of a character's turn). The real damage for Barbarians was the class ability that let them burn daily powers during a rage. High damage, but very expensive, and I don't think you could use a basic attack to do it like the 5e paladin's smite.</p><p></p><p>In other words, the 4e Barbarian and Rogue (and Ranger and by extension all the rest) were already designed around the idea that they would be triggered to attack by powers from other PCs. So the riders and bonuses and abilities were designed from the ground up to not be overwhelming or dominating or the primary source of damage from a single blow. The math might have been so tight in 4e that you'd hear dogs howling if your PC farted, but they did have a good handle on what was allowed to happen.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Bacon Bits, post: 8546511, member: 6777737"] Yeah, but the game was balanced around it happening. It was designed with the knowledge in mind from the initial release of the game that there would be effects that trigger attacks. And there were [I]many[/I] effects in 4e that would trigger bonus basic attacks, especially for Leaders and sometimes for Controllers. It wasn't a unique or uncommon ability. The only thing unique to Warlord was that it was an at-will and could be a build-around. In 5e, about the only way to accomplish this is with Battle Master or Haste, a 3rd level single target concentration spell that doesn't amplify Extra Attack or Sneak Attack (though it does work with Smite, but that's mainly Smite being broken). Additionally, 4e Commander's Strike only granted a [I]melee[/I] basic attack, and the warlord himself had to be in melee range of the target, too. A sorcerer or warlock would probably not be able to capitalize on it. It was also the reason basically every Lazylord used a longspear. There were many party compositions where you could be limited to enhancing a defender, or forced into doing your own thing entirely (not that that was a big deal; you still had encounter powers). Furthermore, those 4e striker abilities are often weaker than their 5e equivalent. Sneak attack for example is, if anything, a little bit harder to trigger in 4e (combat advantage vs advantage or an ally adjacent), and you also do [I]much[/I] less damage. 2d6 up to level 10, 3d6 level 11 to 20, and 5d6 at 21 and up. In 5e you do 2d6 at level 3, 3d6 at level 5, and 5d6 at level 9. And everyone had a ~10 point HP bonus at level 1 in 4e, too, so it doesn't really start out better. Sneak attack is just less potent. I'll be honest, I don't have as clear a memory of Barbarian, but I vaguely recall the rages themselves being somewhat self-limiting or otherwise only being modest bonuses (add attribute bonus as bonus damage in some circumstances, or only firing at the start of a character's turn). The real damage for Barbarians was the class ability that let them burn daily powers during a rage. High damage, but very expensive, and I don't think you could use a basic attack to do it like the 5e paladin's smite. In other words, the 4e Barbarian and Rogue (and Ranger and by extension all the rest) were already designed around the idea that they would be triggered to attack by powers from other PCs. So the riders and bonuses and abilities were designed from the ground up to not be overwhelming or dominating or the primary source of damage from a single blow. The math might have been so tight in 4e that you'd hear dogs howling if your PC farted, but they did have a good handle on what was allowed to happen. [/QUOTE]
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