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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Arkhandus" data-source="post: 5555798" data-attributes="member: 13966">Just to clarify/reinforce my earlier points; and I still support the use of Tome of Battle for fun warriors in D&D with an interesting variety of moves; and never said it was "anime."  Monks are more "anime" than anything else in D&D, anyhow, short of Ninjas and Samurai. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />  Well, and some Psychic Warriors using the right powers and feats.[sblock=Eldritch Lord]Again, I DID NOT say it is "anime in general", I said that most of it is closer to that genre than it is to gritty sword-n-sorcery.  I even gave examples to back up my response.  I also did not say it was a lot more work to make a classic sword-n-sorcery type of warrior, I just said that there are a lot less options for that kind of semi-realism as opposed to the more fantastical/supernatural/"anime or wuxia" sorts of stuff in ToB.  And I pointed out that many maneuvers in every discipline are mystical to some degree.  And swordsages are only explicitly supernatural at mid- to upper-levels when they get Sense Magic, which is fairly minor anyway.Technically, if a Fighter stood there and did nothing, the sword to the face could be done as a coup de grace for potential insta-kill.  Unless paralyzed or otherwise helpless, they're assumed to be doing at least a little bit of dodging or otherwise reacting at the moment of impact.  Also, the Stone Dragon discipline description EXPLICITLY calls out the fact that it draws upon the external power of earth and stone, requiring the character to be in contact with the ground when using those maneuvers.  While they may not necessarily be supernatural in game-terms, they're still mystical in nature even if the designers chose not to give them the supernatural type.  It's like a monk's ki-abilities that aren't all supernatural or spell-like; the ones that aren't particularly flashy or blatantly magical just aren't labeled supernatural.And I never disputed that Conan would probably be a Warblade with lots of Iron Heart maneuvers and stuff.  I explicitly called him out as an example of what ToB could be used to emulate.Lightning Throw sends the weapon in a straight line and then has it zip right back to your hand afterward.  There's no bouncing around to ricochet in a clever way, nor a boomerang effect; it's a straight line.  More than just stretching disbelief.Stone Bones is inherantly more mystical than the barbarian's DR by its very definition and that of its discipline.  It's not just building up a natural toughness/resistance to injury like a martial artist does through rigorous and brutal training; it's a very brief transformation of the warrior's flesh into a stone-like hardness, while Adamantine Bones instead mimics the hardness of adamantine for a few seconds.  And it applies even if you get knocked unconscious or paralyzed afterward in the same round; any further attacks against you (like a coup de grace) would still have to contend with that DR until the end of the round.Also, do you seriously think an adamantine golem (Epic Level Handbook) has a weakpoint that you can exploit through Mountain Hammer?  No, of course not!  No matter how much you jab at it with a butterknife, you aren't going to hurt it, even if you have the strength of Hercules or Thor.  You have to mystically suppress its innate hardness at the point of impact, or mystically increase the hardness of your butterknife at the moment of impact, in order to do anything more than just crumple your butterknife into a piece of scrap.  You need to draw on the durability and density of elemental earth in order to overcome that stuff.  Etc.The low-level Setting Sun throws are believable enough or at least close enough for S&S or low-fantasy.  It's the high-level ones that are ridiculous for anything short of mystical feats of martial prowess from ki/chi development like you'd see IN WUXIA AND ANIME.  Which was my point about those maneuvers.  Conan doesn't throw ogres 20 feet.  Conan doesn't throw ogres 60 feet as high-speed projectiles crushing everyone in their path.  He might throw a sword that far and cut everyone in the path (almost like Lightning Throw but without the instant-return), but not people.  Or ogres.  Or iron golems, of all things.Tornado Throw could throw 6 or more people in as many seconds, while simultaneously jogging/dashing 60 feet or so.  That's faster than the Judo record you mentioned, and while still close enough for low-fantasy, I think the dashing and 10+ feet of throwing distance pushes it a bit too far for a completely non-mystical explanation.  And with the bonus that Tornado Throw grants on each successive throwing attempt, you are likely to be throwing the last few opponents 20-30 feet each.  And again, those foes could be iron golems or the like.  Sure, such big and heavy critters' bonuses might reduce the throwing distance to 10 feet or possibly result in one or two failed throwing attempts, depending on other modifiers and the luck of the dice, but still.....it could still end up being 20-foot-plus throws with such critters.I forgot that Ghostly Defense actually required an external source of concealment or displacement or the like, rather than literally producing its own fog or turning the user incorporeal.  Brief mix-up in my head with the similar Shadow Hand counter One With Shadow, of the same level.However, every hit you take that deals HP damage necessarily inflicts at least some physical injury.  Wound-healing effects can remove the HP damage, and many attacks can inflict extras like poison, the Wounding magic weapon effect, or other such side-effects that necessarily require inflicting a physical injury, however minor.  Sure, some portion of a healing effect may have more to do with numbing pain or restoring stamina, but it's undeniable that when you use Crusader's Strike to revive an unconscious ally, THAT'S MAGICAL HEALING.  Especially when you're 10 feet away.  Also, its description even says that divine energy surrounds your weapon when using that maneuver.Furthermore, it only works if the foe has an opposing alignment and presents a clear threat to you or your allies at the time; it's all about drawing on the conflict between your alignments (which in D&D, is a force of nature/the universe itself, not merely different ways of thinking and reasoning) and divine power to heal and invigorate yourself or an ally when you succeed at smiting a foe of opposing alignment (Nerull says: "Good job whacking that infuriating goody two-shoes, have a cookie!" <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> ).  Foehammer and some other Devoted Spirit maneuvers/stances have the same restriction.  Many other DS maneuvers/stances directly draw upon the fundamental forces of alignments.A placebo or simply believing yourself to be invincible will not save you from guzzling a keg of Black Lotus Extract (or getting bitten in the carotid artery of your neck by a black mamba, rattlesnake, or king cobra).  Or getting knocked into next week by an angry titan's maul when that titan's using the Awesome Blow feat.  Or avoid pissing your pants and panicking in terror when a Colossal Great Wyrm Red Dragon suddenly lands in front of you and roars in your face just before he eats you.A couple of attacks in 6 seconds with a pike or greatsword isn't outside the realm of sword-and-sorcery or low-fantasy, it's reasonably believable enough for a heroically strong dude.  Since real-life archers can fire roughly an arrow a second, and records of Mongolian archers and others with advanced composite bow technology that's since been lost indicate that they could shoot even faster with their bows, I have no problem imagining a character with Manyshot or Rapid Shot.  Sure it's not likely to be as accurate, but, D&D characters do suffer attack penalties when making multiple attacks in a round, generally.I only said that Time Stands Still seems mystical in light of its use with heavy weaponry, not light weapons or unarmed strikes.  A skilled martial artist can easily make several attacks per second with his or her bare hands and feet.  Even I can, and I hardly have any martial arts training.  I'm talking about 6-10 attacks per round with a greatsword or the like using Time Stands Still, almost 2 such strikes per second, which is what's definitely beyond the realm of the non-mystical.Errr, no, barbarians don't shapeshift while raging.  Frenzied Berserker is just idiotic design and blatantly absurd in how far it stretches the idea of berserker rage.  It shouldn't be used as an argument for more absurd breaking of the suspension of disbelief for "nonmagical" characters.  Also, the Bloodclaw Master's "Shifting" class feature is specifically designated as Supernatural.Your argument for the Eternal Blade being nonmagical conflicts with your argument for why the Swordsage is magical; each technically has one and only one Supernatural class feature.  But the EB's is far more significant and intrinsic to the class.  And you don't get a mortal teacher following you around that any mook could kill while the old geezer's focused on babysitting you and trying to tell/show you exactly how to do everything; you got a spirit following you around and 'haunting' your dreams and sometimes taking control of your body or lending you temporary knowledge of a maneuver (including Devoted Spirit maneuvers, which are largely divine in nature to some degree or another) or exactly how to fight a particular type of enemy (like a Favored Enemy bonus).And besides, I was just refuting your point that was supposed to refute my point about much of the book being oriented towards a more mystical sort of warrior than a classic sword-and-sorcery fighter like Conan.  Clearly, most of the classes in Tome of Battle are either magical or so heavily infused with blatant ki-powers that they ought to be called out as magical despite the designers technically designating most of their maneuvers or class as Extraordinary.  And anyway, numerically speaking, 6 of the 8 prestige classes and 2 of the 3 base classes possess either designated Supernatural abilities or spellcasting or both.I know the PHB2 has some ki-powered feats and such.  It is wierd that they're not supernatural, but oh well.  The designers of that book had plenty of other problems anyway with their design work and balance with the classes and options in that book, not just the Feats chapter.Normal D&D books clearly indicate supernatural abilities and don't include much that's EX but blatantly SU in description/function.  Tome of Battle is different in that respect.  Even though there are also several maneuvers and stances that are quite reasonable for a low-fantasy or sword-and-sorcery style campaign.  However, it does not change the fact that a lot of the book lends itself more to anime-style or wuxia-style superhuman combat abilities.  Just read the Behind the Curtain: Blending Genres section and the rest of the Introduction in the book.AND I'M STILL NOT SAYING THAT IT CAN'T DO SWORD AND SORCERY STYLE WARRIORS.  Just that it's not oriented as much towards them.  I'm not arguing that the book is "anime."  I never did.  Just being honest that it's actually a lot more mystical or superhuman in a lot of its material than what normal D&D "mundane" classes could do; some people don't like that and don't like seeing warrior-types doing all that crazy stuff.  The original poster deserves to be informed about the book's contents if he were to ever go and purchase it, before he might regret it if he's one of those people who hates anything smacking of "anime" or "video games" or other such unrealistic stuff.  There are certainly plenty of them that flamed the book and those who liked it, back when the forums were still mostly focused on 3.x D&D.And I already mentioned that ToB is more oriented towards mythical heroes and such rather than a gritty Conanesque character or the like.  Also, it should be noted that anime and wuxia are inspired by eastern mythology and legends anyway, and that the concept of Chi/Ki probably originated (according to what little historical evidence is available from that far back) with some teachings of Greek Pankration and its concept of "pneuma."  Pankration was Hercules' (Heracles') supposed fighting style and the national martial art of Greece since ancient times, revived/reconstructed in modern Greece from recovered artifacts inscribed with images or writings of ancient Greek martial arts moves.  One of the original Olympic sports of ancient times.[/sblock]And that's all I have to say on that topic.</blockquote>

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