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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Wayside" data-source="post: 764476" data-attributes="member: 8394">Sorry, by egoist I meant the denial of possibility argument, not that your take on good/evil was in any way egoistic--it was the similarity of the proof you tried that I was referring to.  When you say "this can't be evil because evil is x and what this guy is doing does not fit x, therefore his act, being not x, is not evil" it reminds me of an egoist arguing that all actions are self-interested.Well, an egoist doesn't really believe in Good and Evil.  They might say something about 'the good,' but not Good.  What I meant to get across initially was that morality, when stripped of a religious focus, can manifest itself in a LOT of ways.  In a religious system good is valued for itself and evil, as you say, can't be (though plenty of psuedo-satanist goth kids would argue with us about that).  But, strip away the religious mores, ideas like 'innocence' and 'grace,' and what do you have?  A person who acted only according to what logic dictates could very well be "evil" to a religious person, because many religious beliefs have no logical basis.  And logic *can* be valued in itself, while at the same time being looked on as evil by someone else, so you see how something can easily be valued for what it is while being evil (albeit to someone else).I completely agree with you that someone can't really think of themself as evil and be a paladin-like figure, but the Knights of Takhisis in Dragonlance sorta provide a counterexample to this as well.  I suppose it could happen if being an anti-paladin was a way to promote oneself, but now we'd be combining moral psychology with ethics, and you aren't likely to get any kind of concensus whatsoever under those circumstances.I can imagine someone, though, serving some powerful infernal lord, thinking of themself as evil, but acting in a manner befitting a Paladin, say, because the love of his life died accidentally at the hands of someone good.  He simply wouldn't care.  He would do whatever he had to do to acquire the power necessary for revenge, including staining his heart black and bowing to a demon.  Once he got his revenge, though--or speaking archetypically, once he accomplished whatever task he set down the path of darkness consciously to achieve--he would probably just kill himself.But this is exactly what I mean.  Good and Evil were objective qualities to the Nazi's, their definitions were just different than ours.  The Nazi Paladin *would* be pursuing his ideals of good and law by doing what Nazi's did.  It's true that many of them had no idea how bad the atrocities were, but then there were many who did as well.  And there are still people today who hold these kinds of ridiculous views of racial inequality.  Many of these people are well-educated.  I know of one who is even a professor at Berkeley.  We think of them as evil, or misguided, or simply racist, but they do not see themselves this way.  I'm sure they have plenty of names for us as well.Ok, so I got some of my gist across.  But let's make an example: Fantasy nation X faces constant border raids from surrounding goblin or orc tribes, or even elves or dwarves etc.  Now, after a while of this nation X gets fed up and embarks on a campaign to put these people down.  Nation X is already proceeding according to your 2 and 3.  What if that nation believes, that is, considers to be a scientific fact, that these goblins/orcs/elves/dwarves are an inferior race.When ants or rats get in your home, don't you exterminate them?It's something of a simpler question in a fantasy campaign, where goblins really *are* an inferior race (so it's not a just a question of a mistaken belief), but by the same token it seems to me that most adventuring parties are evil anyway.  They go traipsing about the countryside, invading the caves and dens of non-agressing creatures, killing them for money and experience.  You want an evil Paladin?  You've probably played with or as  one already!  But they attacked you when you entered their cave?  Well, wouldn't you attack them if they broke into your house?  The reason I brought up the Nazi Paladin in the first place is because I've seen that archetype of a character far too many times.In real life I admire the rigidity of your morality.  You sound like the kind of person I'd want to watch my back, i.e. not a car salesman <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /> .  It is probably pointless for us to argue this much further, though, since obviously by your view an evil Paladin is totally impossible, which I agree with.  If I had your view of right and wrong and a hierarchy of goods, principles and virtues, I would say the exact same thing.  If you are willing to entertain the hypothetical world where our world's morality does not apply (i.e. where the gods make their presence felt, there are no 10 commandments or categorical imperative, etc., and where moral philosophy is at the level of sophistication of an Aristotle, or a Cicero), however, I think there is more to say than simply that one cannot be both evil, and paladin-like.There is also a grammatical rule about using 'an' before a word that begins with a vowel. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f631.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":eek:" title="Eek!    :eek:"  data-smilie="9"data-shortname=":eek:" /> Anyway.. I don't think this is true.  Conceptually a Nazi seems like a prototype for an evil knight because he still serves an empire, is still lawful, etc.  The reason I brought it up, however, is that so many PC parties run around like this; invading, conquering, stealing, killing, like they're out to commit goblin genocide.  This mindset goes for clerics and paladins too, sadly.The way you solve this is like you say though: don't tie paladins to any concrete notion of good or law.  Let them have different takes on the issue and voila, you have paladins that are evil (in the eyes of someone else).</blockquote>

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