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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Vigilance" data-source="post: 2747764" data-attributes="member: 4275">Well, as the person who characterized the opinions of some Modern gamers as wanting "bang you're dead", let me make a couple of points:1. I have no problem with that mechanically, as long as a system is HONEST about it and handles it elegantly. A lot of hyper-realists pile on effect after effect (lots of damage, then an immediate save of some sort to avoid death, possibly ability damage, then continuing damage from blood loss- often more than one of these).My contention is that it's better to replace such effect layering, which usually just prolong the inevitable and add extra dice rolling to a combat with "bang you're dead".At least that's fast and the player knows up front what he is getting himself into.2. Although I personally don't like that sort of game, I agree it CAN be fun, in games where you are trying to make a certain point. The non-d20 Call of Cthulhu immediately leaps to mind. Gun battles are not a feature of the game on a regular basis. Another issue with the hyper-realist gamers is that they often impose "Bang you're dead" rules systems on games where they expect a LOT of combat. I guess some people get a perverse pleasure out of a huge bodycount.If you read Strutinan's original post for example, he complains about unrealistic combat in a True Lies type game. Beacuse um... when he thinks of gritty, hyper-realistic combat, Strutinan apparently thinks of the old Combat tv show and True Lies... I'm guessing. 3. I've never seen any indication that "Bang you're dead" *is* more realistic. My stepfather was a WWII commando from 38-45 who had several bullet scars he would show me (and more in places he wouldn't) as well as dozens (literally) of shrapnel scars. He also told me that he considered a knife much more dangerous than a gun. His exact comment: "Two men can stand in an alley and shoot at each other all day. When they run out of ammo and pull their knives, only one is walking out."He also told me he had killed more men with his knife than his gun. Again, I neither know nor WANT to know much about the realities of combat, but I do consider hyper realism to be more complicated and less fun than similar systems that allow the PCs to be heroes. Chuck</blockquote>

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