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Message: <blockquote data-quote="FrozenNorth" data-source="post: 8098042" data-attributes="member: 7020832">I don't want to seem like I am always down on PF2.  PF2 has a FANTASTIC case to make to RPG players, both new and old.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Greater customization.  You can tweak a character so it is exactly what you want.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">More tactical depth. Tons of options for both martial characters and spellcasters within combat, and tactics can be dynamic based on what you are facing.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Fun and flavourful subclasses.  You can play a Strength monk, there are 8 sorcerer bloodlines, the barbarian options are new and interesting.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">High pace of publication. Some people want much more character options than 5e offers, even after 6 years.  PF2 definitely scratches that itch.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Tons of archetypes. Paizo comes up with a lot of archetypes to customize your characters even more.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Golarion.  Golarion is a fun, cool setting that in my opinion does a better job of integrating different cultures and races than the Forgotten Realms.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Responsive Authors and Designers. On the Pathfinder forums (and even to a lesser extent on ENWorld), the Paizo designers and authors frequently post and comment.  Often, this offers an insider view of some of the decisions that were taken, and with adventures, provides free designer notes.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Small Upstart vs Huge Monolith.  Paizo does not stress this aspect a lot, but it is absolutely true.</li> </ul>(There may be others).The first five elements that I have highlighted can absolutely be a positive, but they add to the complexity of the game.*  It is up to each player to decide for themselves these advantages are worth the extra complexity they bring.The review that kicked off this thread pointed out the positives and also pointed out the complexity.  It did so using the example of a theoretical dual-wielding ranger at the upper level of complexity.  The ranger had multiple dual-wielding class feats (pretty standard for a dual-wielding ranger), was wielding weapons with very different keywords (unlikely in my experience unless the ranger had claimed a magical weapon that was found and didn't have a pair) and weapons that used different stats (Dex or Str, very unlikely in my experience).Some of the responses to this review seemed to deny that there was a considerable difference in complexity between PF2 and 5e.  This is baffling to me.  (I had to make 20 decisions in character creation?  I didn't notice.  I was too busy having fun.) Both in character construction and combat, greater complexity is one of the selling points of the game.  In PF2, you can make a sorcerer who can intimidate 4 people with a single glance but who couldn't lie to save his life and is terrible at persuasion.  In 5e, even if the sorcerer doesn't take proficiency in Persuasion, he is still likely to be the 2nd best at it (depending on how many other Cha classes are in the party).  A fighter can overcome a "meh" intelligence by taking the Arcana skill to legendary, if he wants to be a specialist in magic.*This isn't to say that there aren't some rule missteps complexity-wise.  Game designers are human (until proven otherwise).  Even 2e had them ("cough" weapon speeds "cough").</blockquote>

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