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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ourph" data-source="post: 3023377" data-attributes="member: 20239">I think the disconnect here may be partially due to the fact that you seem to see the dungeon as part of the normal structure of the fantasy world, whereas I look at it as the fantasy world equivalent of being in a warzone or a police raid.  No, I don't swim in a cage when I'm at the beach, but I would definitely not swim without a cage in shark-infested waters full of fishblood.  IMO entering "the dungeon" in a fantasy world is the equivalent of swimming in shark-infested waters full of blood.I don't understand, are you saying that last sentence is a bad thing?  Why is being more pro-active about not making bad choices bad?  That's all I'm saying about this scenario.  If the PCs had been more proactive about avoiding the bad choice of touching the lever themselves rather than using an easily available proxy (summoned monster, unseen servant, mage hand, rope, etc.) they'd be fine.Again, I'm not understanding.  Do you have a problem with the trap being there at all or do you just object to the fact that it's a save or die effect.  The choice is only arbitrary if there's no excuse for a trap of any kind to be there.  I understand, but disagree with, the idea that the consequence is "too harsh" but I can't understand at all the idea that the DM has no right to place a trap on the lever at all.  I simply don't understand how anyone can argue that the PCs weren't wrong at some level when they could have easily avoided triggering the trap so directly.  Is it REALLY that much of a burden to avoid directly touching a potentially dangerous mechanism in the dungeon with an expedient as simple as using a rope rather than your hand.  I'm not saying the rope would definitely save the PC but when something like that is so easy to do and it might save the PC, why not do it?OK, look at those two statements.  To me, you're contradicting yourself.  You're saying that if there's an unbeatable challenge the PCs are facing there should be clues to its unbeatability around to discover.  Then you say the character's skill has to have an effect on the outcome.  But an unbeatable challenge with interpretable clues that give warning about the challenges unbeatable nature inherently ISN'T something that character skill effects.  It's up to the players to recognize the clues for what they are and interpret them correctly.  There is no mechanic for characters to think on their own.  YOU are supplying any "clue interpretation" involved in avoiding that unbeatable challenge.  Please explain to me how that is any different than YOU the PLAYER being required to make the choice between pulling or not pulling a potentially trapped lever.I still don't understand the argument that there's no reason to expect a trap.  Why would you NOT expect a trap when you're in a dangerous environment like a dungeon?  This just makes my question above even more pertinent.  Do you object to this trap or do you object to the presence of a trap on the lever period?This leads me to believe that you really are opposed to the idea of traps period.  Because traps by definition are threats which do not pose an obvious threat.  If a trap is as obvious as a squad of orcs or a red dragon it poses no challenge whatsoever.  If I'm misreading this, please explain how you're OK with traps but you believe that threats that aren't obvious are somehow unfair of unfun, because I'm really confused about this point.I think you may also be drawing way too many conclusions to make this a useful discussion.  As I said before, there's a huge difference between being "in dungeon" and being in your own home.  I haven't once made the argument that PCs should have to live in hermetically sealed chambers to avoid death in a D&D game.  It seems like an unreasonable stretch to take the statement "Levers in a dungeon can be dangerous, it's best to be very careful and use all the safety precautions at your disposal before touching them." and make it mean "PCs should treat every door as if it could explode and every commoner as if they were a polymorphed great wyrm and ever horse turd as if it was a land mine.".If you could just explain as plainly as possible what exactly about having a trap on a lever in a dungeon is arbitrary I think that would seriously help me understand your point.  Are you honestly meaning to say that levers in dungeons should never be trapped (because that's what I'm getting) or are you saying this specific trap is arbitrary.  If its the latter, could you please explain what makes it arbitrary.  I understand you think it's not fun and unfair, but the word arbitrary is confusing me.  Are you applying that term to the placement of the trap, the difficulty of the trap, both?  Are you sure arbitrary is the word you're looking for?  I just don't get it.   :\</blockquote>

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