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<blockquote data-quote="Ourph" data-source="post: 3023415" data-attributes="member: 20239">Listen, I understand the argument that something with such a high save and such a severe consequence is unfun (with which I agree) and unfair (with which I don't agree) I just don't get the idea that it's arbitrary.Yeah, the saving throw doesn't mean much, but as I say above, it's obvious from the setup that the PCs involved suspect there is a trap on the lever, otherwise they wouldn't have the person with the best saves of the group pulling the lever.&nbsp; No one is forcing them to pull the lever.&nbsp; Nothing is preventing them from using a proxy.&nbsp; Nothing is preventing them from using their resources to further examine the lever before acting.&nbsp; Nothing is preventing them from simply walking away and leaving the lever alone altogether.Personally, I would MUCH rather have a trap that's as easily avoidable as this one with some reasonable player choices rather than one where I'm left with little choice as to whether I actually activate it or not and a reasonable save DC.&nbsp; I would much rather my character's welfare rest with my decision-making ability as a player than a random roll of the dice.&nbsp; In my opinion, if you're making the saving throw you've already screwed up.&nbsp; The way to avoid death isn't to have a high save bonus and roll well, the way to avoid death is to not put yourself in the position of making the saving throw in the first place.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ourph, post: 3023415, member: 20239"] Listen, I understand the argument that something with such a high save and such a severe consequence is unfun (with which I agree) and unfair (with which I don't agree) I just don't get the idea that it's arbitrary. Yeah, the saving throw doesn't mean much, but as I say above, it's [u]obvious[/u] from the setup that the PCs involved suspect there is a trap on the lever, otherwise they wouldn't have the person with the best saves of the group pulling the lever. No one is forcing them to pull the lever. Nothing is preventing them from using a proxy. Nothing is preventing them from using their resources to further examine the lever before acting. Nothing is preventing them from simply walking away and leaving the lever alone altogether. Personally, I would MUCH rather have a trap that's as easily avoidable as this one with some reasonable player choices rather than one where I'm left with little choice as to whether I actually activate it or not and a reasonable save DC. I would much rather my character's welfare rest with my decision-making ability as a player than a random roll of the dice. In my opinion, if you're making the saving throw you've already screwed up. The way to avoid death isn't to have a high save bonus and roll well, the way to avoid death is to [U]not put yourself in the position of making the saving throw in the first place[/U]. [/QUOTE]

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