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Is this fair? -- your personal opinion
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<blockquote data-quote="merelycompetent" data-source="post: 3023678" data-attributes="member: 33830"><p>Quasqueton, that is probably the wisest and most astute sentence I've read in a long time. Kudos.</p><p></p><p>I still say that I don't have enough information to reach any valid conclusions as to whether the described situation is fair or unfair. I'll take a stab at answering your other questions, tho. All of this is IMO.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The results don't necessarily make it unfair. It is the setup that makes it fair/unfair. For example, if the DM tells the players at the campaign/adventure start, "This place is a deathtrap. Be on your toes. If you're not careful, your character will die", then the results are not unfair. If, by contrast, no such indication of the DM's style was given, and this was the players' first time ever playing D&D, then the results are grossly unfair. If the expectations are set such that the *players* only discover that the scenario is a deathtrap *after* their characters die, then it's unfair and not fun. Setting those expectations early gives the *players* the opportunity to decide if this play style will be fun or not, and play (or skip this session) accordingly.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No change from the above. Scraping by with a lucky die roll when your character would fail and die 95% of the time is just luck. That's not a measure of (un)fairness.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, it depends on the setup and player expectations.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No. A lever in the room with a secret door is neither fair nor unfair. The consequences of pulling the lever, and the resulting violation or confirmation of player expectations, makes it unfair or fair.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Those would all work towards setting the players' (and their characters') expectations. That would make it more fair.</p><p></p><p>I also wonder why you don't include a level modifier question in here. Resurrection-type magics are more easily available at higher levels, and reduce PC deaths from being catastrophic to just very annoying. That definitely affects the (un)fairness of a trap like this.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>See the examples I gave above.</p><p></p><p>Finally, just to be clear, I'd never put a save-or-die trap in an adventure with new players, even veteran players who are new to my DMing style. It might be save-or-take-massive-damage instead. But losing your character to a die roll in the first five sessions kinda ruins the player recruitment pitch. I'd certainly talk with the players about what kind of game they, and I, want to play before starting. All bets are off, though, if the PCs are high level, have already been through several adventures with save-or-take-massive-damage traps, *and* I've set the players' expectations for save-or-die traps.</p><p></p><p>I hope this provides food for thought.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="merelycompetent, post: 3023678, member: 33830"] Quasqueton, that is probably the wisest and most astute sentence I've read in a long time. Kudos. I still say that I don't have enough information to reach any valid conclusions as to whether the described situation is fair or unfair. I'll take a stab at answering your other questions, tho. All of this is IMO. The results don't necessarily make it unfair. It is the setup that makes it fair/unfair. For example, if the DM tells the players at the campaign/adventure start, "This place is a deathtrap. Be on your toes. If you're not careful, your character will die", then the results are not unfair. If, by contrast, no such indication of the DM's style was given, and this was the players' first time ever playing D&D, then the results are grossly unfair. If the expectations are set such that the *players* only discover that the scenario is a deathtrap *after* their characters die, then it's unfair and not fun. Setting those expectations early gives the *players* the opportunity to decide if this play style will be fun or not, and play (or skip this session) accordingly. No change from the above. Scraping by with a lucky die roll when your character would fail and die 95% of the time is just luck. That's not a measure of (un)fairness. Again, it depends on the setup and player expectations. No. A lever in the room with a secret door is neither fair nor unfair. The consequences of pulling the lever, and the resulting violation or confirmation of player expectations, makes it unfair or fair. Those would all work towards setting the players' (and their characters') expectations. That would make it more fair. I also wonder why you don't include a level modifier question in here. Resurrection-type magics are more easily available at higher levels, and reduce PC deaths from being catastrophic to just very annoying. That definitely affects the (un)fairness of a trap like this. See the examples I gave above. Finally, just to be clear, I'd never put a save-or-die trap in an adventure with new players, even veteran players who are new to my DMing style. It might be save-or-take-massive-damage instead. But losing your character to a die roll in the first five sessions kinda ruins the player recruitment pitch. I'd certainly talk with the players about what kind of game they, and I, want to play before starting. All bets are off, though, if the PCs are high level, have already been through several adventures with save-or-take-massive-damage traps, *and* I've set the players' expectations for save-or-die traps. I hope this provides food for thought. [/QUOTE]
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